Yes, we know you probably learned to convert images to CMYK in Photoshop before placing them in InDesign. And yes, we know that you’ve been doing this since 1989 with PageMaker 2. But you know what? This is the 21st century now and it’s time to wake up, smell the coffee, and change your ways for the better.
So, even though we’ve been saying this for 15 years, maybe you haven’t heard it… so we’re going to say it one more time, with emotion:
You can leave your images in RGB. You don’t need to convert them to CMYK. And in fact, you probably should not convert them to CMYK (at least not in Photoshop).
As we have traveled around the world giving presentations about InDesign, Photoshop, and publishing, we’ve been constantly amazed at the number of people who are still using the old, 20th-century “convert to CMYK” workflow. And we feel a bit like someone walking into a jail announcing, “Hey, the doors aren’t locked! You don’t have to stay in here!” Some people immediately jump up and taste freedom; some wake up to the new realization slowly; and others refuse to believe it, knowing that staying behind bars is more comfortable than facing the unknown.
True, in Ye Olden Days, the RIPs (Raster Image Processors) used by commercial printers to translate PostScript from graphics programs did a lousy job of converting RGB to CMYK, resulting in muddy, inaccurate color rendering. Thus it was that, in all the land, a decree went out, ordering that Thou Shalt Convert Thy RGB Images To CMYK Before Sending Thy Job To The Printer.
Fast forward to Modern times: Current print workflows perform excellent conversions of RGB to CMYK, and some printing processes — such as digital presses and large-format inkjet output — actually provide better and more vibrant output when fed with RGB content.
You’ll still encounter print providers who insist on the submission of CMYK content, partly because “that’s how we’ve always done it” (and partly because some very small shops might still be using antiquated equipment).
Of course, you should always consult the printer to determine how your job should be submitted — never assume!
But here’s the truth: InDesign can convert your images to CMYK as well as Photoshop can. It uses the same color engine, so you can get exactly the same results. (There are a few, relatively rare exceptions to this rule, which we’ll cover below.)
So now, in the 21st century, here’s the new rule: Keep your images in RGB as long as you can, place them, as RGB, into InDesign… and then, only if you have to, convert to CMYK inside InDesign when you make your PDF files.
We’re Talking Pixels Here
We want to be clear that we’re talking about pixel-based images here — bitmapped images, such as those from Photoshop. We’re not talking about vector artwork. InDesign can convert RGB vector artwork, too, but it won’t necessarily end up the way you’d expect. If you’re using Illustrator or a similar vector-drawing tool to make logos or illustrations that will likely be printed, we generally recommend using CMYK or spot colors, not RGB.
Similarly, when you’re applying solid colors to objects in InDesign—and those documents are headed for print—you should use CMYK or spot color swatches, not RGB, in the interest of predictable conversion. For example, if you apply a solid RGB color 0/255/255 (which is bright cyan) to a frame and then print it, you’re not going to see a perfect 100% cyan in print. Instead, you’ll get something like 52% cyan and 13% yellow. That’s just par for the course when it comes to converting solid RGB colors to CMYK. So if you want 100% cyan, you should spec it in InDesign as 100% cyan.
Tip: In the Swatch Options dialog box, InDesign and Illustrator both warn you if an RGB color falls outside what CMYK printing inks can reproduce (called the CMYK “gamut”). Click the yellow alert triangle to convert to the closest in-gamut RGB value, so you won’t be shocked when the color is converted to CMYK.
Note that we’re emphasizing “for print.” If you’re creating documents that are primarily for on-screen viewing, then solid RGB colors are great, even in vector artwork!
Why Placing RGB Images is (better than) OK
What’s so wonderful about Red-Green-Blue? RGB is the native language of digital cameras and scanners, and it can faithfully portray a wide range (gamut) of colors, from vibrant oranges to brilliant greens, from bright white to dramatic black. Cyan, magenta, yellow, and black (CMYK) printing inks can render a smaller range of colors, resulting in disappointing approximations of those oranges and greens, as well as other commonly desired colors, such as navy blue.
When you convert RGB images to CMYK, you lose those out-of-gamut colors, and they won’t come return if you convert back to RGB.
But here’s the important part: Just because you place RGB images into InDesign doesn’t mean you’re sending RGB images to your printer! InDesign can convert those RGB images to CMYK when you export your PDF file. (It changes them in the PDF file without modifying your originals on disk.) So by placing RGB images, you have a choice: send RGB or CMYK—and if you choose CMYK, then you have to decide which CMYK.
The “which CMYK” is a new question for a lot of people, because they think there’s just one CMYK. But there are thousands of different CMYKs! So when you convert an RGB image to CMYK in Photoshop you’re targeting (optimizing for) just one of those. And, unless you use the correct target printing profile to perform the conversion, you may have stripped out RGB colors that could have printed successfully. For example, if you used a profile for uncoated paper when preparing images that will print on coated stock, your conversion is way off. Plus, printers who have implemented a full color-managed workflow want your images as RGB because they can convert to CMYK at the last stage before printing, optimizing output for the final printing platform.
Even better, sticking with RGB means you can use the same images for different jobs: the same document could be printed on Web press coated paper one day and then sheetfed uncoated paper the next. Or you can use the same image assets in multiple ways— for example, a brochure printed on a sheetfed offset press, and a companion banner printed on a grand format inkjet device. The results might be very slightly different, but you will be able to get the best quality from each, rather than target just one printing condition and then leave the other one to chance.
Keep in mind that most modern printers can handle RGB content. Converting to CMYK early won’t necessarily ruin the outcome, but might result in the loss of some color gamut, especially if the job is going on a digital press such as the HP Indigo or a wide-gamut device such as a large format inkjet printer.
So talk with your printer: If they say they can accept a PDF/X3 or PDF/X4 file, that means they can handle the conversion from RGB to CMYK themselves (and, again, they’ll probably do a better job of it than you can). If they say they need all your images converted to CMYK, then use InDesign to do the conversion when you make your PDF.
(Some of you are saying, “But I don’t make a PDF, I send my native InDesign files to the printer.” Well, um, that’s nice. We find sending PDF files to be far more reliable, assuming the file is created correctly. If you aren’t sure how to make a great PDF file, see the links to our video courses and books at the end of this article.)
Of course, your printer may request that you send an InDesign package with the PDF so that any necessary changes can be made more easily. Printers often have to modify otherwise perfect files to accommodate the final printing process. But if the file and the PDF is made correctly, they shouldn’t need to touch your original files.
How to Convert to CMYK When Exporting a PDF
When your printer tells you they do prefer CMYK images, here’s how to export your PDF files from InDesign:
- Choose File > Export.
- Choose PDF (Print) from the Format pop-up menu.
- Choose a PDF Preset (such as PDF/X-1a if you want to flatten all your transparency, or PDF/X-4 if you want to maintain your transparency).
- Set up all the other options in the Export PDF dialog box (compression, marks and bleeds, etc.)
- Finally (here’s the important part), in the Output pane of the Export PDF dialog box, choose Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) from the Color Conversion pop-up menu. Do not choose “Convert to Destination” (without the “preserve numbers”) part, unless you really seriously know what you’re doing. Preserve Numbers means “if I have a CMYK image or CMYK colors in my file, then leave those alone.” You want that.
- Then, in the Destination pop-up menu, choose which CMYK you are targeting. Again, in the best case scenario, your printer will give you a color “profile” you should choose. But if they insist on CMYK, and for some reason can’t provide a custom profile, ask if they’re running the job on a web press or on a sheetfed press; then you can at least use canned profiles. For example, for uncoated stock on a sheetfed press, you might want to use Uncoated FOGRA29.
- Click Export.
The PDF you get will be all CMYK and your printer will be happy.
When It Makes Sense To Convert to CMYK Before Placing an Image
There are a few times when we convert images to CMYK in Photoshop before saving and placing into InDesign:
- First, if an image includes a color that must show up with a specific CMYK value. For example, let’s say you have an image of a banner with a giant corporate logo on it, and that logo has to be a particular CMYK value. Or if you have an image that contains an area of solid magenta that really is supposed to be solid, 100% magenta.
- Second, there are some image retouching situations where you really need to adjust just one plate. The classic example is when you have an image of a model’s face and you want to adjust just the black plate.
In those cases, we would convert to CMYK in Photoshop and then adjust the color on individual channels/plates to match the required color. But those are the exceptions, not the rule.
And, for goodness sake, if you are going to use Photoshop to convert from RGB to CMYK, choose Edit > Convert to Profile (instead of just choosing Image > Mode > CMYK). If you just change the image mode, Photoshop uses the values dictated by your current color setup (Edit > Color Settings). That’s fine if your current color settings match your ultimate printing process. But choosing Edit > Convert to Profile helps ensure that you’re choosing the correct target (“which CMYK”) each time.
For More Information
Want to learn more about preparing images for print, exporting documents to PDF, and managing your color? Check out:
- InDesign Insider Training: Color Management
- Claudia’s excellent article on RGB vs CMYK in Issue 129
- Real World InDesign
This article was last modified on July 8, 2021
This article was first published on December 11, 2014
I just read this wonderful post, and I can’t say enough good things about it– it answered a million questions for me– THANK YOU!!
Plus, I think this is Comment #300, so I’ll probably win some kinda door prize!!
My approach is as follows: I convert my RGB image to a Smart Object in Photoshop. Then I convert the file to my desired CMYK profile. Then I make all the color corrections in the RGB Smart Object. If I have both files open side by side, I can immediately examine the RGB corrections in the CMYK conversion.
For me this is the perfect way, I have both color spaces preserved and I can evaluate the CMYK output profile and measure in it.
What do you say to this approach ?
This is marvelously clever! I’ll have to try it!
Hi! Thanks for everything! I’m wondering: what color mode should be used for vector artwork that is intended for laser printers or inkjet printers, since those are RGB devices. Should the Illustrator document be set in CMYK or RGB? Thank you!
Laser printers and inkjet printers are CMYK devices, but I usually treat them like RGB devices because they are generally optimized for RGB output (for example, from Excel or Word). But this is not always true.
In my experience, if the printer has a PostScript interpreter, it often handles CMYK a bit better. If no PostScript, RGB is often better.
But ultimately, for desktop printers, you often just have to test to see which works best.
Thank you!
There are good reasons for use of ICC color managed RGB in workflows that include print, not for all content but for some, yes.
Fairly obviously, specifying “black text” that is supposed to be unconditionally printed with CMYK=(0,0,0,1) is clearly looking for trouble. On the other hand, when you get into content that is other than black or grayscale there are two factor to consider:
(1) You often don’t know what the actual process CMYK print condition will be and very often content may be printed on different presses with different CMYK color spaces. Converting RGB raster images to CMYK assumes you know what CMYK you need. Experience has shown us that many if not most graphic artists have no idea of what this issue is even about. Thus, it is best practice to leave conversion of ICC color-managed content, especially raster image graphics but also RGB-based vector graphics to the RIP. And you should create PDF/X-4 files with source profiles for the RBG content. (This is supported by InDesign, Illustrator, Photoshop, and Acrobat and is endorsed by virtually every non-Luddite standards group and print association!)
Often content is printed with additional colorants (including such colorants as bright green, orange, light yellow, light cyan, light magenta, etc.) such that you get an expanded gamut. This is typically handled at the RIP when converting ICC color-managed RGB to the device colors and in this case more than just process CMYK. It you prematurely convert you ICC color-manged RGB content to CMYK, you thwart the possibility of taking advantage of the extra gamut available on these presses. Again, in this case PDF/X-4 is your friend.
– Dov
Dov, Thanks for your expertise. Using an all RGB workflow is not as odd as I thought. I know the organisation has an in-house print department and I was supplied a variant of the PDF/X-4 preset, so perhaps the print department is protecting designers from themselves. There is very little text, none in fact on the piece I am working on, that is specified as ”black”. It is all coloured tints defined in RGB. If the print department knows everything is going to a digital press with a wider gamut, then having the designer specify in RGB would lead to less disappointment?
I don’t think it is so much the “wider gamut of a digital press” in general (in fact, not all CMYK digital presses have a wider gamut than typical CMYK offset), but that (1) different digital presses yield different results for content that is specified in DeviceCMYK and (2) for any device that supports extra colorants to increase gamut, that capability relies on the content remaining in a high gamut color space, which is certainly not DeviceCMYK.
– Dov
Hey Dov, great to read all your info and advice regarding PDF versions/Standards. I have a couple of queries reading PDF/X 1a vs PDF/X-4.
As you have already stated, its best to talk to printers to determine what PDF standard they require. In my case is mostly PDF/X 1a, which seems to be fine for the best part, but if one of those PDFs, are picked up and then nested as a graphic in Indesign for re output, this does cause problems with stitch-lines and can also cause problems with CMYK head-pops over spot colours, especially when a spot colour is converted to process to prior to outputting exporting PDF again.
I have solved these problems by exporting as PDF/x4. However I prefer to render a .icc CYMK conversion, so have tinkered the output settings on PDFx4 set up and set a designated Output Intent for final PDFs (EFI 300 v2).
Its seems to work well, no stitch-lines and spot colours are rendered well when placing the cover PDF back into Indesign ( we do this when we create posters and promo for Magazine cover)
My questions to you are, if I am changing the output intent dynamics of the PDF/X4 file , is it still an x4 file? … and will it still be suitable for a printer who prefers x1a?
I have recently been working with a large client where I am updating existing artwork which I suspect was produced by an in-house designer who has since left them. All of the artwork I have been tasked to update has the colour that a set in RGB. Gradients, flat colours, text, the lot. I have asked the writers and editors I am working with why this is the case and have got back . . . silence. I think this may be caused by them not knowing the answer.
Would there ever be any good reason to specify all colour in print-destined artwork in rgb? The print work I am working on may be printed on a digital press. But to my knowledge, most digital presses also presume a print-related working space, some flavour CMYK or Pantone.
The original intent of this article was regarding RGB raster (photographic) image files.
It is not “safe” to blindly pass on RGB r0g0b0 text, however this is generally covered by most high end prepress systems such as Kodak Prinergy which will cleanly convert such content to 0cmy100k. Enfocus PitStop Pro or PitStop Server also has options for converting as well. Acrobat Pro can do so too:
https://prepression.blogspot.com/2014/06/acrobat-pro-convert-rgb-black-to-cmyk.html
This is also a feature of some of the built-in preflight profiles/fixes that ship with Acrobat Pro.
Absolutely. Even the direct printing feature for Acrobat provides options for this (at least to PostScript printers). Actually, I was personally involved in spec’ing this out for the product since there was so much content coming from Office applications where black and grayscale was coming through as R=G=B and that users were “surprised” when they were paying “click charges” for what they thought was “black and white” printing.
Bottom line is that there are a number of switches and options throughout many PDF print publishing workflows to “fix” R=G=B, but one would be prudent where possible to avoid those particular situations.
– Dov
Hello Frederick! Funny you should mention it, as I’m editing a terrific article by Steve Laskevitch on how he created a book that worked for both print and online publishing (single InDesign doc)… he argues that RGB can be a reasonable color space to work in — even with document color swatches! That said, it takes work to ensure that the RGB convert to CMYK properly.
Are you coming to CreativePro Week this year? Steve will be speaking on color management issues!
David, I look forward to reading the article! Will it be up in the InDesign Secrets magazine?
I would love to come to CreativePro Week, but the twin edeavours of working for a non-profit and doing freelance don’t yield a large enough profit centre at this point. Maybe someday!
I look forward to reading the article! Will it be up in the InDesign Secrets magazine? I would love to come to CreativePro Week, but the twin occupations of working for a non-profit and doing freelance don’t yield a large enough profit center. Maybe someday!
Aaron, unless you have black text in an *image*, this should be fine. If you have black text in an image, that’s unfortunate, but you could use a Max Black separation profile to fix that, invoked either in Photoshop or during PDF export.
As always, it’s all about what your print service provider wants/allows.
Not a good idea if you need pure black text (CMYK = 0,0,0,100). Your print job should definitely be in CMYK. Otherwise, you won’t know your colors are out of range until you create your PDF. Keeping your assets in RGB would also mean that you’re risking that some of the colors are out of range and will change.
Based on the last two comments, I did a bit of detailed testing, creating a grayscale TIFF file in Photoshop (with segments at 10% intervals ranging from 0% to 100%). I save both a version tagged and with an embedded ISO 20% profile and one untagged (and obviously without a profile). I also saved PDF versions of same.
I then placed those four files into InDesign, letting InDesign “inherit” whatever was in the file. I exported both with the “high quality print” and “PDF/X-4” settings. In neither case did the resultant PDF from InDesign show a tagged image. All the images, contrary to what I thought, actually ended up as Device Gray images in the final PDF files. Note that in general conversions from ICC Gray to some ICC CMYK color space will result in something that is NOT CMYK=(0,0,0,1), but apparently, current InDesign places grayscale images and exports same without whatever ICC profiles were in the images to start with, unlike ICC profile-tagged RGB and CMYK images.
This is unexpected but quite frankly, is a hell of a lot safer than getting unexpected rich blacks.
– Dov
I’ve done one further set of experiments. I tried turning OFF the color preference to ignore incoming CMYK profiles. That seemed to make no difference in terms of InDesign ignoring incoming Grayscale ICC profiles.
Note that if you really need to deal with color-managed Grayscale for InDesign, you really need to create CMYK images with CMYK=(0,0,0,g-1) from G=(g). You can do this by copying a grayscale image into the black channel of a new similarly-sized color-managed CMYK image of the same resolution.
– Dov
InDesign does not support direct grayscale output in PDF unless your output intent (for PDF/X-4, for example) is a grayscale profile in which case everything is rendered in that color space.
In reality, what happens is that G=(g) is converted to the equivalent CMYK=(0,0,0,1-g). Note that G=0 is black as is CMYK=(0,0,0,1). What you might need to be concerned about are any grayscale ICC profiles on placed grayscale images and compatibility of such with the default CMYK ICC profile.
– Dov
@Dov
Would you recommend only placing untagged grayscale images in InDesign when outputting to printready pdfs?
> What you might need to be concerned about are any grayscale ICC profiles on placed grayscale images and compatibility of such with the default CMYK ICC profile.
Thank you Claudia and Dov for your quick replies. I really appreciate this!
Claudia, I did check the values in both PDFs, and you are right, they were the same! Interestingly, the files look exactly the same on my screen, but looked different on my client’s screen. Knowing that the values are the same is very reassuring.
Dov, your comment clarifies this issue a lot. Thank you. Yes, my images did have grayscale ICC profiles, and when exporting with “no color conversion” from InDesign, I’m guessing that these ICC profiles were causing the difference in display.
Thank you for this extremely helpful article!
Elena,
Open the PDFs in Acrobat and launch the Print Production toolset. Choose Output Preview and sample the same area on both PDFs. Even though they may not look the same in Acrobat, the values should be the same.
Question about grayscale…if I have a file with grayscale images, does it do any damage to export a PDF out of InDesign that converts to CMYK? For example, if I set the settings to PDF X/1A, the output is set to “convert to profile…cmyk etc.” I haven’t had a problem with this and grayscale images before, but now I’m wondering if I’ve been somehow damaging them. What do you think? The reason I’m wondering is: I recently exported a file with “no color conversion” out of InDesign, and the grayscale images looked darker than the previous file (which has the CMYK conversion going on in the InDesign export). The file looked darker on my client’s screen, but did not look any darker on my screen (which is calibrated for print). Which screen do I trust (hopefully mine!?) and will the file actually print darker? I’m confused. Help is appreciated!!
Great question, following! And a question to David: is there something about this in LinkedIn Learning? Thanks!
Spot color will remain spot during output as long as you have not converted spot swatches to process using Ink Manager. The color profile governs the RGB-to-CMYK conversion, but preserves spot.
Hope that helps.
Just asking about color profile while exporting, if there is a PMS on our file and RGB photos. How can I set up my Colour Conversion, If I want to my output was CMYK and PMS color. Thanks in advance.
This is good to know. I guess I am stuck in the dark age. I am working on a manual and there are about 50 png files that use RGB. I don’t know if png was the right format, but anyway, my real question is, why does InDesign alert you as if you are doing something wrong in saying “ahhh you have files that are in RGB” before you package a file?
I’m going to go back to fixing these embedded png files!
InDesign doesn’t flag RGB as an error, but rather does provide a “warning” so that the Luddites amongst us can chill out. This feature of InDesign dates back to the earliest days of the product going back over 18 years. I am sure that if we took out those warnings (as opposed to errors), there would be some set of our users who would cry bloody wolf!
With regards to PNG files, although not normally associated with high quality raster images since they can only be in RGB, in fact they aren’t all that much different than RGB TIFF files with an ICC profile. Don’t waste your time changing them.
– Dov
Thanks Dov! Also, thanks again for saving me the time! :)
THis article is really helpful
one ques, does this same procedure apply when saving pdf from illustrator?
After Export Preflight of Adobe Acrobat gives me a warning that CMYK goes beyond the 300% Color* (*Farbauftrag in german). How can that be solved? If I convert an Image in Photoshop it will take care of it. But how can I make shure in Indesign that the convertion stays below 300%.
Rudi, it will depend on the ink limit and possibly rendering intent that is built into the profile used for conversion when exporting to PDF. Are you using a PDF/X format and if so which? What are your colour conversion settings when exporting to PDF? What CMYK profile are you using to export to in the PDF export?
My advice is to do exactly what the article title says ;-)
Thanks, Claudia. I wasn’t sure as the article mentioned to think twice about illustrations. I appreciate your help ;)
… And if you carefully read the rest of the thread, you will also see that modern day PDF print publishing workflows call for color conversion (along with transparency blending) at the RIP/DFE, regardless of whether it is a digital press / wide format printer or a traditional offset / flexo / etc. process. Virtually every RIP/DFE from the last decade handles color conversion correctly; whether the prepress operators know that or not is a separate question. Welcome to the 21st century!
Excellent article, thank you! I’m adding Illustrations for a children’s book to my InDesign document. Is it best to place these as RGB (like they currently are) or convert to CMYK first? I look forward to your answer :)
Thanks! This was super helpful!
Great stuff and right on point. All these CMYKs are intimidating, and preprint is full of dire warnings, so it’s good to hear that there are some warnings we can actually ignore now that the world is catching up to our needs.
Perhaps not the right place to post this, but I just want to let InDesign Secrets know that I am continually amazed by how much I DON’T know. I figure the better trained I am, the more money I save for my clients, so I sometimes allow myself 15 minutes “on the clock” learning my craft. The problem is that I ALWAYS go over that allotted time (and have to go “off the clock”) whenever I begin perusing your site.
Thank you SO MUCH for the site and all of the wonderful, helpful and useful information!
I agree Ken, I’ve been using Indesign a long time and there is so much I still don’t know! I’ve only just stumbled across this great sight and will be visiting often and yes kindness is free!
Hi Claudia and/or David,
Here’s my situation. (As a technical writer who has had to learn the Adobe Suite on the fly, any advice is much appreciated.)
I use InDesign to create product documentation (datasheets, installation instructions, flyers, etc.) that is mostly posted to a company website for download/printing by the user. On occasion, some of these items are printed for trade shows or a document bundle is created and sent to a translation agency.
The images used in this documentation consist of:
1. Clean, straight-forward product photos (products are mostly grey, metallic, black, occasionally some color) that are CMYK/300dpi/.tif. Sometimes a .psd is used if it is available/background transparency is needed).
2. Simple graphics (circuit diagrams, performance curves, dimensional drawings and the like) that are .eps mostly; however, I have to use a lot of legacy .tif files.
In short, these are not high-end docs so I don’t need to deal with all the fascinating color, paper, printer, etc., considerations that many of the other folks here need to do.
Here are my questions:
1. Does the switch to RGB I’ve been reading about here affect both the photo and graphics formats?
2. Would you please provide me with the parameters I would need to properly save any eligible files for placement into InDesign?
3. Would you please tell me which option under “File/Adobe PDF Presets” I should choose to make the best. pdf for online viewing? Or, if a new option needs to be set up, provide the parameters I will need to do so?
Many thanks,
Kathryn
Still… the tone sound a bit demanding…
Kathryn,
FWIW, I thought your query was well-thought-out, cogent, and straightforward, without even a hint of “demanding.” You were respectful, gave pertinent information, and asked the questions in such a way that they could, in fact, be answered in a 1-2-3 format, as you suggested, and as Mr. Yocum was kind enough to do.
In short, you formatted your query exactly as the experts on, and moderators of, most forums request. Good job!
Much success,
Ken
~~~~~~~
Kindness is a commodity that pays you back in ways that you can never foresee, but it ALWAYS pays you back many times over.
The question was addressed to David and Claudia, but since we are piling in . . . .
@Kathryn
1. RGB workflow is specific to raster-based images, eg. images primarily in tiff, jpeg, psd format. If the graphics are vector-based, and you can edit them, put them in the profile colour space of the containing InDesign file.
2. If you are receiving images in CMYK, it is best to just leave them in CMYK unless you are going to improve them in some way. They are already “cooked” you won’t gain anything by converting them to RGB, unless you are going to enhance the colour. If anyone will be comparing a printed version with your web pdf, enhancement might be introducing colour skews.
3. The profile I use for web based pdfs is Smallest Size. This will downsample images and convert to sRGB which is a very conservative RGB colourspace. It does create small files. If you think there will be people getting them printed on indigo or high end presses, then align your CMYK colour space with whatever colourspace the images are coming to you in.
The point of an RGB workflow is to maintain a large colourspace and allow the printer to tailor the conversion to fit the strength and weakness of a particular printing environment. I am seeing some UV ink CMYK offset printing on uncoated paper that is amazing. If images are profiled to look good on a piece of newsprint in 1980, then the artwork is sold short by converting too early.
Kathryn If you are being supplied with images converted upstream to CMYK and you want to move to an RGB workflow, reread this article, take out a subscription to Lynda.com and watch David’s course, reread this article and get ready to plead your case to the powers-that-be. Old habits die hard.
Wow… People pay me for all such advice. How about a course Colour Management at a training centre? Or follow a Lynda.com video course…?
Hmmm…Snarkiness, if there is such a word, I don’t need.
This is not a color management issue. I have already done a good bit of research and was hoping a forum of experts could provide some time-proven, useful advice for a particular situation.
I envisioned simple answers such as the following:
1. Yes or no.
2. Use 300dpi RGB .tif files (an RGB .tif file looks strange to me so I was hoping for confirmation), or something similar.
3. Choose the fourth option on the list, or something similar.
Hi,
Which CMYK profile suitable for offset print and digital print?
Please kindly advise me.
Such an interesting article – thank you. I had a issue today. Bringing RGB photos into Indesign 6 and exporting the entire file to be printed RGB. The colours weren’t as vibrant as the original RGB photo. Thanks for your help in advance.
This could be because the images are converted from sRGB to Adobe RGB. Most screens can only display the sRGB color space. Distorted color display can occur when images in the Adobe RGB color space are displayed on such screens. Try exporting to sRGB and check if the vibrance comes back.
If you have an image with a black background (or any other consistent flat color), placed on top of a frame colored a matching tint, there’s a good chance those components won’t match; some RIPs color-manage raster and vector content differently, even if both are the same colorspace. What I’ve done in those cases is either silhouette the subject and place it on the uniform color background in InDesign, or this:
-In Photoshop, make sure the edges of the image are a uniform color by painting it around the edges. Note the color value (whether it’s RGB or CMYK doesn’t matter).
-In Photoshop, make a small image (1 inch by 1 inch would work), and fill it with the same color value, in the same color space as the image described above.
-In InDesign, rather than making the background frame a tint of that value, place the small image in it and scale up. Doesn’t matter how much — 1000% even. This will work because there is no inherent grain in the flat color.
As to your bad experience with RGB “looking like hell on CMYK presses,” some vibrant colors (such as bright greens, navy blues, bright purples) simply can’t be rendered in CMYK– there’s no getting around it. It’s a good idea to do a CMYK preview in Photoshop to get a more realistic idea of final print. In InDesign, choose View > Proof Colors to do the same.
Hope this makes sense.
While working on a brochure with CMYK vector logo elements and a CMYK rich black top and bottom border, layered over an RGB photograph, I have deep concerns about the photo not matching the depth of the surrounding colors if I do not convert first. I love the idea that I will not have to convert the photo, but are modern presses really clever enough to print in multiple color formats? Too many bad experiences with RGB looking like hell on CMYK presses. Advice?
We print many small newspapers from publishers who have limited understanding with printing processes, little understanding of InDesign features and not much understanding of CMYK vs RGB. We routinely get files with RGB graphics AND text. Though this process seems to work OK for graphics, in my tests with text that is spec’ed as RGB, it does not seem to work. We often get four-color text — which on a cold-set web press — does not work well. We want blacks to be 100% K, 0%C, 0%Y and 0%M. We regularly need to go in using PitStop and convert the Blacks to K only. And, yes, I have tried to educate our customers but our instructions never seem to stick. They are back the next month with the same issues.
Andy, I think what you are looking for is “rich black”, which is darker than 100%K
Hope that helps, it is not too difficult to Google Rich black. Your press will have a preferred mix but you could start with a standard formulation
Angus, Rich Black is exactly what we DON”T want. We want 100% black with no additional colors mixed in. It makes it more difficult for our press operators to hold color on the press. We are printing on a web press and we have enough to keep us busy holding the colors on graphics without worrying about the text. We also need black to overprint when on background colors. Black that knock-out invariably pose registration issues as well particularly when serif fonts are used.
But you don’t want rich black in text: you want text that is only 100K. Andy’s complaint is that RGB “black” text becomes a 4-color mix when converted to CMYK (this can happen with some imported Word text, or images with text content, such as a screen shot). Rich black should be used only in larger color areas, such as an all-black back cover on a magazine printed on an offset press.
Thanks for this David, I’d read bits about no longer needing to routinely convert and your piece covered the issues I’d been left wondering about.
This works except for one issue.
If my document contains incorrectly profiled cmyk images and rgb images, and I want to convert all to a new destination profile while preserving native cmyk objects. I cannot. If I use the correct “Convert to destination (preserve numbers)” option it still wont work despite the description stating “colours will be converted to the destination space only if they have embedded profiles that differ from the destination profile” which it does.
I’ve run multiple tests bringing pdfs back in to indesign and it simply will not cover this situation. However I can runa convert colours option through acrobat that does. I’d love to cut out this extra step and do the whole thing in indesign.
Am I missing something? :D
Cheers
I’d like to learn more about mixed profiles in one document on export as well.
VERY helpful! Thanks!
When I follow your instructions for converting an Indesign file to PDF (maintain cmyk image format) it doesn’t work. At least, I THINK it doesn’t work. If it is not a stupid question, could you tell me please how I can check the resulting PDF – I mean, check the format of images which are in the PDF to make sure they are still cmyk and have not reverted to rgb? Many thanks.
In Acrobat, open the Print Production Tools. Choose Output Preview and, next to “Show,” choose “CMYK.” If nothing disappears, you’re good. Or, you could choose “RGB” and hope everything goes away. Keep in mind that Spot color content will remain spot — it will NOT be converted to CMYK.
Brilliant article, this has helped a lot with prepping print documents for various clients! Thanks!
Hi David,
You mentioned that this is great because you could then use the same image for a web and printing job, but shouldn’t one image be 72ppi while the other 300 of resolution?
Thanks in advance!
Bill: I think we said “web press,” which is a type of printing press. But in general, the idea is the same: using RGB means you can export the same document for print or on-screen viewing (such as an on-screen PDF). But yes, the images would then have to be downsampled if you were creating HTML.
Sorry, my bad! Thanks for your quick answer.
I feel suddenly liberated!
It sounds great and thank you very much for the article!
Although what really is frightening is that I then get this Indesign (CS5) Warning on Export:
“The preset specifies source profiles that dont match the current color settings file. Profiles by the color settings file will be used”
I only get this Warning when I use “Preserve numbers” like you strongly recommend. I checked, rechecked and adjusted the Indesign settings under Color settings, Assign profile and convert to profile in the EDIT Menu but can’t find a mistake and get this warning away.
Thats why I unfortunatly still go back to photoshop and do the color conversion to CMYK there (an extra day of work usually).
Any advice is warmly welcome
Thanky you!
Wern
Werner: That is very strange. Can you email me a very small document that has this problem and explain the steps you are taking (what PDF preset, etc)? I’m at david [at] indesignsecrets.com
Of course PSD has a terrible downside, at least in terms of the “space” problem that Sandra is (or at least her IT folks are) trying to resolve. Both ZIP-compressed TIFF and PNG have significantly better lossless compression than PSD which use RLE compression for its raster data. PSD files can be humongous.
It also turns out that if you save an image in Photoshop as TIFF with the layers option, you save absolutely all the editing information that you have with PSD in a potentially much more compact file due to the significantly better compression of the raster image data! (PDF also allows such an option!)
– Dov
Sandra,
(1) Unfortunately, I’m not clairvoyant! Depending on the parameters they use to create PNG files and with whose library, your guess is as good as mine in terms of the quality of the PNG files and their efficacy for your needs.
(2) sRGB in and of itself is not a problem. By default, it is the RGB color space of non-professional digital photography and the web. Web browsers for the most part are still in the 20th century when it comes to color management. They all assume sRGB and most ignore any profiles in images. If your original imagery was shot or created in sRGB, you’re fine. The problem is that if you have wider gamut RGB with some other color space, unless you explicitly convert it to sRGB for the web, your colors may be off and if you are going to print, you should keep the original RGB color space until the RIP does the conversion to whatever color space is supported by the print process in use.
(3) & (4) :-)
(5) PNG files are generally not smaller than JPEG unless you limit yourself to 8 bit color (i.e., 256 distinct RGB colors) in PNG and/or you have very vector like content on a constant background. JPEG gets size advantage by squeezing the living daylights out of photographic images and incurring lossiness that in such images, you might not notice if you don’t request the higher levels of compression (= lower quality) and/or repeatedly recompress the same image.
Good luck in your quest. This stuff is clear as much, right?
– Dov
Thanks so much Dov, all clear! I think you may unintentionally have answered an unsolicited question: the sRGB could have maybe caused greenish and blueish tinges in previous catalogues…will look into that further too!
Hi David, thank you for this great article. I stumbled upon it in my despair because of some things going on in our office.
Our R&D department is thinking about saving rendered product images in PNG instead of TIFF, because it saves them precious time and space on the server.
From these TIFF files I make artwork for our printed media, convert to high resolution JPGs for print purposes as well, low resolution JPGs for our website and PNG files to be placed on backgrounds in online PDF product leaflets.
My initial reaction was that PNG is merely suitable for online use. But on the other hand, Indesign converts al RGB items to CMYK when I export to PDF, which you confirmed in your article. That’s already a big relieve.
But more questions come to mind:
1. Are there specific requirements to the PNG they generate. I’d say I need at least PNG-24 in 300dpi and large enough for me to be able to still do scaling, distorting etcetera, am I correct? If so, I wonder how much time they will win over rendering in TIFF.
2. We provide our customer low res JPGs for their website. I cannot think of any reason why they could not do with PNG instead, can you? Of course I would have to convert the 300dpi PNGs to smaller sizes to make them suitable for online use. Am I correct?
Hope you can help and confirm I overlooked everything before I agree to change from TIFF to PNG. Thanks!
I agree with my highly-esteemed colleague, Dov, here: PNG should work as well as TIFF, as long as the color profile is saved with it. But these days I prefer a different format: PSD.
PSD can save image layers, transparency, and remains highly editable. They’re probably editing the images in Photoshop, so why not just save them as PSD for you to place into InDesign? Then you can export as lower-res JPGs for web etc.
Hi David, thank you for your reply, much appreciated! My colleagues, product development engineers, design in CAD (software Creo) and render 3D product images in Keyshot. So no Photoshop and no PSDs I assume.
Sandra,
On behalf of Adobe Systems Incorporated, a few comments on your posting:
(1) In terms of server space, a ZIP-compressed TIFF image in RGB should not yield any significant difference in space requirements over a PNG file assuming that the TIFF file is also RGB-based! Obviously a CMYK TIFF file has an additional channel of data (and CMYK ICC color profiles are generally much larger than RGB ICC color profiles) and for the same image could be 30 to 40% larger. Also, LZW-compressed TIFF files are not as efficient in terms of compression as ZIP-compressed TIFF files. In terms of creation or rendering time, I don’t believe that you would see any significant difference between PNG and ZIP-compressed TIFF! (I don’t buy the line about “precious time and space on the server.” Sounds like a made up excuse!)
(2) A properly-produced PNG file should yield the identical quality as a ZIP or LZW-compressed RGB-based TIFF file. Note that I said “properly-produced PNG file!” Not all PNG files include ICC color profiles. Thus, if you convert a photographic image processed with ICC Adobe RGB as PNG without including the Adobe RGB ICC profile embedded, many if not most clients will assume ICC sRGB which will distort your color! Current versions of Adobe Photoshop do include the ICC profile when saving as PNG. On the other hand, we cannot vouch for third party products or libraries. Be very careful here!!!
(3) Hopefully you don’t convert CMYK-based JPEG or TIFF to PNG and expect to get the same CMYK colors back if subsequently converting RGB to CMYK. Such round-tripping is not an identity operation.
(4) One advantage of PNG over JPEG is for images that otherwise would or should be represented by vectors (straight lines, grids, text, etc.). Since JPEG is lossy, such vector-like content often shows compression artifacts in solid areas adjoining straight lines.
(5) On the other hand, JPEG files in the same color space are typically much smaller in size (and thus efficient in web display) than PNG or TIFF, especially for photographic images (as opposed to vector-like content per above).
If you are careful, especially in terms of including ICC color profiles in the PNG files and other issues discussed above, you should be fine.
– Dov
Dov, thank you so much for the extensive answer, I really appreciate it. Hope I may go over a few points mentioned
1. Basically you confirm my thinking that PNGs should have the same quality as the TIFFs have now. Which also confirms to me that wanting to switch to PNG to save time could only mean that they do not intend to include color profiles and maybe create a PNG-8 file?
2. I’m not that knowledgeable regarding compression. I checked some of our TIFF files and they are LZW compressed, 300dpi, sRGB… You mentioned sRGB distorting the colours. Does that mean that the TIFFs we are working with now already are saved the wrong way?
3. We don’t ;-)
4. Understood.
5. Really? I was under the assumption that PNGs are smaller than JPGs. Will look further into that.
I’ve used a very special technique for years now that has worked wonders when dealing with the CMYK and RGB profiles. To ensure the best color is coming through for both print and digital–simply go to the store and get a 1-gallon tub of yogurt (any flavor will do, but I prefer peach)… using two fingers and thumb, rotate your hand deliberately and scoop out a liberal amount of said yogurt.
Now that you have a hand full of yogurt, wipe it across your computer monitor. Feel free to let it dry and reapply as needed.
Now sit back and behold… there are no more issues with either CMYK, or RGB because your mother was watching you do this and just called the nearest rehab clinic for you!
Great advice, I’m on it!! :)
Gary,
I’m going to use your method from now on! Not only is it effective, it’s an excellent source of protein.
Thanks so much for the much-needed laugh :-)
:) Always enjoy being a little goofy with such a serious topic as InDesign
Rachid,
There’s an easy solution to the RGB black issue: just separate using a max black GCR setup.
I suffered through the “Coke Red” issue a lot back in the day, too. In cases like that, yeah, you do need to prep the files as CMYK.
Hi nice article, I started my carrier as a graphic designer in 1992, even in those days it was possible the send a RGB image inside Quark Express, but this method still has some risks. I worked with big clients such as Coca Cola, Gillette, Mitsubishi and so forth, these clients are picky, most of time you have to print an image that contains their colors in a flat shape, for example the red of Coca Cola is 100% magenta and 100% yellow, one time a client refused the job because the magenta was about 90%. Other times you have to create rich black inside the picture, or you might need a black is that just one color, if you send a comic book in RGB, the black will be converted into four colors.
Good article.
I’d advocate designing in RGB and convertin to CMYK. I am an animator and web designer, I need everything in RGB. With the majority of marketing being used on the web, your better off building with RGB and converting to CMYK for specific print output than the other way round. This is just for Raster images though, Retouched photos etc.
David, thank you SO much for this article. :) I finally finished my humongous project and submitted it to the printers, then found out they want all images in CMYK… Hundreds of pages, thousands of images. Your instructions were super easy to follow, and seemed to do the trick!
Special thanks for making it humorous and informative, without bogging me down with technical language that makes my eyes roll into the back of my head. :)
How about file formats? Would placing .pngs or jpgs cause any issues?
PNG and JPG technically work fine, but there are pros and cons. Here’s more: https://creativepro.com/tiff-vs-psd-vs-eps-vs-pdf-vs.php
I work at a print shop and we often get PDF or PhotoShop files that have the registration black, so all the text separates in to four parts. Trying all these different steps still has the same issue. Any solutions for this?
Laura, I have some posts at my blog regarding pure black values in PDF colour conversions (as mentioned by David):
https://prepression.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/acrobat-pro-preflight-fixup-to-convert.html
Text and vectors are usually easy enough to fix up with Acrobat preflight fixups, however gradients and images may not be affected, so it will depend on the object and PDF construction.
AFAIK there is no “registration” colour in Photoshop as there is in layout and illustration software, however it is of course possible to incorrectly specify the black as rich black in Photoshop.
Acrobat Pro also has fixups for converting registration colour to black, which may or may not work as intended depending on your version of Acrobat Pro.
Then for everything else to do with fixing PDF files, there is of course Enfocus PitStop Pro.
Laura: Yeah, body-sized text is not a good use for RGB! If the “image” is just text, then you could probably just convert it to grayscale in Photoshop. But if it’s a mix, then you may need to so something like use Acrobat’s tools to convert it: https://answers.acrobatusers.com/convert-rich-black-to-flat-black-q42402.aspx
Hi there. Sorry so late. I convert RGB images to CMYK because I want a more accurate depiction of the end result when I send a client an electronic proof. If they are used to seeing their bright and shiny rgb images, they may be disappointed in the printed cmyk piece. Thoughts?
Janette: You can use soft proofing to preview CMYK on screen, and have InDesign convert to CMYK when you make the PDF so your client sees it as cmyk. See more here:
https://creativepro.com/rgb-workflow-from-photoshop-to-final-pdf/
Turn on the import option when importing images, there you can choose the rendering intent.
– “It uses the same color engine, so you can get exactly the same results.”
I could not find the info on which rendering intent is used when converting RGB images to CMYK. I would assume relative colorimetric. Can someone help.
Thank you
I’m a complete novice to print design and am very much used to the world of web and digital design. I need to put together an InDesign print file in CMYK, Coated FOGRA39 and supplied as a print ready pdf. My design file is made up of text, block colours, a qr code, large vector graphic/cartoon, apple app store and google play badges (sourced from their sites as .eps files), and a .psd image file of an iPhone.
From reading the article above and all your excellent comments am I right in thinking this is what I should do…
– Set up my Indesign file as CMYK with ‘Preserve Embedded Profiles’ and ‘Coated FOGRA39’ selected and create my text and block colours directly in the CMYK format
– convert the RGB vector graphic and app store badges to CMYK pdfs and then link it to my InDesign file
– convert the QR code .eps file into a CMYK pdf before adding
– leave the iPhone .psd image as an RGB file and link it directly into the InDesign doc in RGB
– convert the app screen shot graphic (originally generated by Sketch) to a CMYK pdf and then link into the InDesign file – this one is currently losing a lot of colour quality during the RGB to CMYK conversion??
Then convert the completed design into a CMYK pdf at the very end and pre-flight using ‘PDF/X-1a:2001’???
I hope that makes sense and thanks in advance to anyone who could help me out and tell me the best solutions for maintaining the colour quality of my different design elements. You guys all sound like you completely know what you are doing and I don’t! The printer’s instructions say to use 300dpi .jpegs as the linked image files but I like the sound of using RGB images and vector pdfs better???
Esther: I think you’re doing great with this! However, I wouldn’t worry too much about the Edit > Color Settings, especially because once you’ve created a document it’s extremely hard to change those settings in it. The default settings InDesign uses are generally safe.
In general, vector artwork should be in CMYK, as Wilhelm pointed out, but there is an exception: vector artwork that is either fine-art or artistic or looks photorealistic should probably be RGB. Vector artwork that is a logo or flat areas of color, etc., is better as CMYK.
The QR code is hard because it does depend on where it came from. I would suggest making the QR code using Object > QR Code in InDesign if you can (or using a tool that makes good CMYK vector QR codes).
I go into great detail about saving PDF files in my Lynda.com courses, such as “Making Print PDFs” and “InDesign Color Management.” In general PDF/X-1a is safe, but I would suggest changing the CMYK target profile to something better than SWOP, so that your RGB images get converted to a better profile.
Hi Esther, you have the basic idea right, however I have some suggestions and questions. Unless I explicitly mention a key point, then I agree with your thinking:
(1) I personally would have the colour management polices set to preserve RGB profiles but to have CMYK set to off (not to preserve). I expand on this in point 6 below, so it is not a firm requirement to use a “safe CMYK workflow”.
(2) Where will you convert the vector RGB EPS files, Illustrator or Acrobat Pro?
(3) QR codes should generally be 0cmy100K for the “black” areas. Is the QR code vector? If so it may possibly benefit from some “cleanup” work in Illustrator.
(4) RGB iPhone image, ensure that it has an RGB ICC profile embedded/tagged in it that creates a visually pleasing preview or that if it is “untagged” with no colour profile that your InDesign RGB working space is acceptable for the image.
(5) Screen Capture – if you are losing “colour quality” then this may just be as good as things go with a basic colour conversion and you will not gain “anything extra” in leaving it as RGB and letting InDesign convert it to CMYK when exporting the PDF (as the colour conversion will be the same). This could be a “special case” where carefully “crafting” the colour conversion in Photoshop by editing the CMYK values would provide a better result than an automated conversion. Above and beyond this point, screen captures of say computer interface elements that use blacks/neutrals in key areas are often best converted using an ICC profile that provides maximum GCR in Photoshop. You can then elect to not colour manage these special use files (assign profile, none) or to make a “white lie” and assign the exact same colour profile as you will be using in InDesign to stop InDesign converting the colour to your different document profile.
(6) Export using a PDF/X-1a profile direct out of InDesign, it can’t hurt to preflight this in Acrobat Pro or Enfocus PitStop Pro to ensure that the export is correct, however if you exported with a PDF/X profile the result should conform anyway so the verification could be considered to be “busy work”.
Correction, I originally wrote:
(1) I personally would have the colour management polices set to preserve RGB profiles but to have CMYK set to off (not to preserve). I expand on this in point 6 below, so it is not a firm requirement to use a “safe CMYK workflow”.
I should have written:
(1) I personally would have the colour management polices set to preserve RGB profiles but to have CMYK set to preserve numbers, (ignore linked profiles). I expand on this in point 6 below, so it is not a firm requirement to use a “safe CMYK workflow”.
I would recommend using vector graphics in CMYK, not RGB. RGB are only useful for raster images.
Therefore I would also recommend preserving numbers, otherwise, you will encounter a CMYK-Lab-CMYL-conversion.
Never use EPS! Use AI or PDF/X-4 instead.
BareCodes should always be in CMYK as they make no sense on screen.
An RGB image has always to have a color profile. It is not a question of like or dislike, it has to be the correct profile.
PDF/X-1a is often a requirement if printers want to have cmyk files, so the conversion takes place upon PDF-export.
If you want to place the PDF in InDesign again, never use PDF/X-1a or X-3, use only PDF/X-4 regardless what the final output will be.
Regarding printing Pantone colours using CMYK. If you have to do this on a regular basis it might be a good idea to invest in the Pantone Color Bridge swatch books which display a Pantone solid colour swatch next to a swatch printed in CMYK with their recommended ink values. This is ensures you have a physical copy of what is possible to help with planning and carry along to any press check. Get the coated and uncoated version because there is usually a significant difference between the two. Depending on the paper you are printing on, your printer may not be able to exactly what is in the swatch book but it will be a lot closer than a soft proof.
Fredrick, just grabbed ours out and I just realized that the reason we are having such an issue is that the branding company we hired to rebrand our company gave us INCORRECT pantone to cmyk conversions. They obviously didn’t use the book. No wonder we are having such an issue! (I still think we had a press error this time, but I have to do this all the time now.)
For a six-figure branding escapade, I just assumed the branding agency gave us the correct conversion. Big THANK YOU for helping me notice that since I didn’t think to even look until now.
@Stephen While it would be foolish to ask a press operator to exactly match a ColorBridge swatch, it does, in my experience, give you an achievable baseline. It is quite possible that the designer specified the wrong Pantone swatch. InDesigns has lots of options and young designers may not know the difference between them. The ColorBridge uncoated CMYK breakdowns are significantly different for some colours. The spot Pantone looked correct because it was ink on paper. Unfortunately, that probably made the rest of the project look worse. There are times it is better to be uniformly off, peoples eyes will accommodate.
Kelsey, unless one knows the CMYK reference condition, it is really hard to make a conversion. The CMYK values supplied by Pantone in their Colour Bridge are only “appropriate” to the printing condition of their colour books, which is generally quite different to what a given end user may be printing. Another way of looking at this is the only correct CMYK recipe is the one that works! :]
I have assigned max 260% custome profile ink coverage in Photoshop color settings and all my images are RGB, but when I export from Indesign to pdf I get 300% ink coverage when I check it in Acrobat… am I doing something wrong in the export settings? This is driving me crazy!
See also: https://creativepro.com/force-color-images-cmyk-240-ink-limit.php
Sam,
You have to use the same color settings in InDesign: Save the setup from Photoshop, then choose it under Edit > Color Settings in InDesign.
Hope this helps!
Will any of the InDesign present PDF exports convert Pantone colors to CMYK or will they always remain a spot color?
Stephen,
Spot inks will remain spot in all Print PDF exports, but you can use Ink Manager in the export dialog to convert spots to process.
If you export to Interactive PDF, *all* colors (including spot colors) will be converted to RGB, though.
Thanks Bret and Dave for the extra info! I knew I wouldn’t achieve an exact match to my Pantone colors if converting to RGB or CMYK no matter what, that is just how it is, but I thought it would be in the realm of no one noticing….except a graphic designer lol.
I had a massive loss of saturation this time around and all of the colors are lighter as well (except the logo pantone of course), so I’m going to chalk it up to our in-house pressman (or our negative producers, they have been known to give us incorrect lines screens and have little hickups when shooting the negatives sometimes.) I didn’t know the swatch panel would function exactly the same as the ink manager though. Very nice to know that I can continue doing what I was doing.
And a big thank you for info on the print preview Bret. I always neglect that step because our company recently converted from Quark to Indesign. I had my Quark color settings perfect to keep consistent color, but I’m loving InDesign so much more. I was just worried it was converting something really, really far off. Which I don’t think is the case now.
Kelsey,
I can’t reply directly to your comment, so doing it in previous comment…
Pantone Spot colors almost never match their CMYK “equivalents” exactly.
That is the point of PMS Spot colors, to allow you to print colors that 4-color process (CMYK) can’t reproduce.
Whether you use the swatches pallet or the Ink Manger, the results will be the same, usually duller colors than a PMS Spot color would be. (How well and what the conversion looks like will depend on the actual swatch and it’s color-space – new LAB or old CMYK)
Similarly, RGB photos will “de-saturate” because CMYK cannot reproduce all the colors that RGB can.
These are limitations of the CMYK 4-color process, not you or the printer per se, assuming they did their job correctly.
If you view your InDesign document with View>Overprint Preview and have set your View>Proof setup to the corret profile (from your printer if you ask or SWOP for general 4-color work), and check View>Proof Colors, you will get a pretty good approximation of how it will actually print.
Converting the RGB or PMS to 4-color yourself will allow you to have more control, but 4-color process cannot match true RGB or PMS Spot colors.
Kelsey: There are many Pantone colors that look different when converted to CMYK, sometimes darker or lighter or not as saturated, etc. InDesign does a pretty good job of converting Pantone to CMYK (especially if you turn on the Use Lab Values for Spots checkbox in the Ink Manager), but it’ll rarely be perfect.
You can learn more about how and why colors change in our Color Management issue of InDesign Magazine: https://creativepro.com/indesign-magazine-issue-85-color-management.php
Oh I have a follow-up question! When you use ink manager to convert specific pantone colors to cmyk will there be any variance in the converted cmyk colors compared to the original pantone color?
We deal with a 2 color press and print 5 colors on it, but we have many pantone colors as a supporting palette to our pantone logo color. The only color I really need is the logo pantone color. I convert the supporting pantone colors to cmyk in the ink manager. However, this last print job came out unsaturated on the photos AND the pantone colors used on shapes from indesign.
Trying to figure out if it’s my fault, if indesign doesn’t truly convert properly or if it’s my printers fault. Lets just say I now have all the supporting pantone colors switched to cmyk, so I shouldn’t be using the ink manager again for awhile. I would like to though since that is suppose to be the goal!
Thank you Claudia….thought so.
SJ
What is the best way to prep files if you want to place photos as RGB and export as a CMYK PDF, but also still need to provide a packaged file of the photos for the printer?
Well, the best way is to find a printer that won’t balk if you give them RGB files in the package.
But the 2nd best way would probably be to convert them in Photoshop (you can batch convert them if need be), resave with the same name, but in a different folder, and then use Relink to Folder to update them all to the new folder. Or, package everything, run the batch conversion on the packaged images (so that you don’t mess up your original ones), then just open the InDesign file and update all the modified images and save.
So if I am starting from the beginning with a book that I want in both print and epub, should I resize all the photos (some of them are huuuuuuge) first and save them in RGB only (at 300 dpi).
Goal to get one image that serves both books.
What size would be optimal? Some of the images are full-page spreads with bleed, and others are small.
I am producing a cookbook (11.8.5) and a travel book (6×9).
Is there a one-size-fits-all sizing rule?
Thank you!
Okay, I get it — they won’t even know I disobeyed them because they just get the PDF. Thank you!
I look forward to any advice that can help me streamline the EPUB – I have a full-color travel book that with a gazillion photos and I need to know what to do with all these CMYK versions.
It’s too late for the print version.
Praying for somebody on Fiverr to do this very cheaply.
Thanks again.
What great news! But phooey, page 10 of Ingram’s guide for authors before uploading to IngramSpark or Lightning Source stipulates CMYK – can we disregard that? https://www.ingramcontent.com/Documents/LSI_FileCreationGuide.pdf
Also — does the procedure you describe help with export to EPUB? I’ve got a book full of CMYK images that are HUMONGOUS for print, and when I do the InDesign export to EPUB I get mayhem with pixelated images and of course doc size.
Would replacing them with print-quality RGB 300dpi images make the InDesign file more friendly to both print and ebook creation?
Thanks!
Carla,
If you keep your images as 300PPI RGB, you can have best of both worlds. Notice that Ingram suggests PDF/X-1a as one of the acceptable formats. When you export to PDF/X-1a, all RGB content is converted to CMYK in the outgoing PDF. Your original images aren’t changed. I can’t offer any advice on EPUB, though; I suspect David can.
Hope this helps.
Gunter,
Was your original text K-only? Or was it text within a Photoshop file? What PDF setting did you use?
Gunter: Yes, the important question is where is the text? Is the text in an Illustrator or PDF file, or is it in the InDesign file? If you have an RGB Illustrator file that contains black text, then the text will become 4-color black. So you would want to change the Illustrator file to CMYK.
But if the text is in InDesign and it is converting to 4-color, then there is something else going wrong.
Hi, I used the Indesign conversion to CMYK BUT the printer replied the text was CMYK also. They want the text in K. At least in case of offset. And I couldn’t find such an option in Indesign. In Acrobat such an option seems to exist, but not in Indesign. This is of importance for offset printing. Digital printing doesn’t seem to give problems.
Gunter, the author’s were very clear that this workflow was not intended for vectors/text:
“We want to be clear that we’re talking about pixel-based images here — bitmapped images, such as those from Photoshop. We’re not talking about vector artwork.”
Mind BLOWN!
THX for your tips …but still error ..watch my video ..
https://www.uschovna.cz/zasilka/KVS9BGE57J5PGGGP-UH9/
Create new document, import indd Export and PDF has only 100K FINE!
Then i copy frame and put in to another document and text is 100K FINE!
BUT!…you will see. It is 3minutes long.
Dobody can explain it? :/
David, i bet on you :)
Lukas: I watched the movie but it’s very difficult for me to know what is going on. Please contact me at “david at indesignsecrets.com” and maybe send me a link to download the files you are working with.
Lukáš,
Check the output tab in the PDF export dialog; sounds like it’s set to sRGB, or some variation of RGB. Make sure it’s set to the newspaper (CMYK) target.
Hi,
any change to preserve number with indd linked files ?
I have indd file with text only (100K) and when i export PDF for newspaper (240% coverage max) Indesign convert my text to all 4 plates…why ?
Maybe not? Check what color profile was used to generate the pdf and make sure that the same color profile is used to preview your PDF in Acrobat. It should be the same.
I agree that it is important to know if the Black is truly being converted to four-color rich black… Acrobat does lie about this sometimes. I wrote about that here: https://creativepro.com/why-you-cant-trust-acrobats-separation-preview/
More on this topic here:
https://creativepro.com/rgb-workflow-from-photoshop-to-final-pdf/
and
https://creativepro.com/force-color-images-cmyk-240-ink-limit.php
It would be better to take some time and tweak your preflight profiles. This is easily done, you can specify then what colour spaces are acceptable. You could even turn on warnings for CMYK content, I know David B. would like that:-)
Ignoring preflight warnings makes it easy to skip over warnings you really do want to do something about.
Alicia, you’re right: just ignore the RGB warnings. Those are sort of left over from ancient times, and InDesign still feels compelled to mention RGB content.
Thanks for the article. So when preflighting the indesign file, are we to look past the errors generated? Found in preflight panel as well as when packaging there is a flag on images using RGB color space. Thanks in advance.
Dov,
Thank you for being the Voice of Reason!
–Claudia
What are your suggestions for output to digital presses? I have seen nothing but problems and inconsistent color and procedures to get the output acceptable.
For optimizing your digital devices color gamut ability through proper RGB workflow, here’s what I upto:
1. make sure the digital image capture is properly icc tagged, bit depth setup and working color space; likely when you finish save as a 16bit tiff and properly tagged (for e.g. Adobe RGB will likely fit for late binding approach)
2. a properly tagged image, and correctly setup INDD which respected the profile, format, bit-depth, transparency etc (u need some work and test on that, Dov is a good commentor);
3. Dov suggest to export as PDF/X-4 as a late binding format;
4. stability of your output device, and it’s maintainence and daily calibration is important, compare heat/toner/liquid type of digital devices with printhead/ink/paper devices, compare how stable they are in delta-E, how repeatable they are thru daily check. Device or use proper wedge and spectro for checking & read deviation/tolerance.
5. building your custom digital devices is a lot of work and expertise, which you need a dedicated person or hire a professional…u need the knowledge tools of hardware/software device vendor support to really get the true device gamut available for specific substrate at specific resolution and other parameters; I think a good profile is highly specific and exact condition has to be met.
6. I”m in research and compilation of such, it seems kind of scattered in the market right now.
7 you also need a guidebook : for your client (how to create, edit and handover the content); for your prepress (what needs to be preflight, normalize, and comply); for your output operator, a particular job that states very clearly the job specifications to the very detail…and the gatekeeper to makesure things are right….the wedge verification.
Troels,
WRT Illustrator — if you place an AdobeRGB image into Illustrator via a link, the color space is preserved complete with its ICC profile. If you don’t do the link, the image is converted from AdobeRGB to whatever the default CMYK color space is at the time you are running Illustrator. YOU DON’T WANT TO DO THIS! Place via a link!!
Export as PDF/X-4 with the default option of NOT converting any colors.
Placing the resultant PDF/X-4 into an InDesign document preserves the color spaces of the RGB images and profiles placed by link into Illustrator.
From InDesign, unless you have tagged CMYK content in the InDesign document (you won’t from the placed PDF/X-4 from Illustrator), export PDF/X-4 from InDesign WITHOUT any color conversion. That is the only way you will preserve the RGB with profiles in the resultant, final PDF/X-4 file!
– Dov
George,
For editing digital images that originated as RAW images from a digital camera, I certainly would endorse maintaining a losslessly-compressed 16bpp TIFF or JPEG2000 file tagged with an appropriate wide-gamut RGB ICC profile such as AdobeRGB.
However, you should be aware that once you place such an image in InDesign (or import either by link or directly into Illustrator), the eight low-order bits are discarded. The rest of the workflow within InDesign (or Illustrator) and exporting (or saving) PDF contains only 8bpp images!
The only Adobe application which can save 16bpp images is Photoshop. Although Acrobat can open PDF files with 16bpp images (and use watermarks and such with 16bpp images), printing from Acrobat such as to a PostScript printer will again truncate the eight low-order bits.
Bottom line is that maintaining 16bpp imagery is appropriate for archives of images that you may want and/or need to “adjust” in the future OR if you are directly sending PDF files saved from such images to a wide gamut PDF-direct printer, but it is effectively useless later in any other workflow.
– Dov
Dov is the right person to answer you.
from what I understand from your description is that you have these done not so right:
(i) the RGB image should have source icc profile specified and saved in the file;
(ii) when you export the AI (with placed RGB image), it’s better export in PDF/X-4 with profile embeded, no color conversion, preserve CMYK numbers.
placing the AI (export as PDF/X-4) to INDD and convert to ISO-coated-V2 preserve number seems fine.
Hi Dov/George/David
Thanks for all the replies. You guys clearly know what you are talking about.
I have a very specific case I would like to describe.
I have a Adobe RGB image I link into an untagged CMYK Illustrator document. I save the Illustrator file as an .ai file and do not put a check mark into “Embed ICC Profiles”.
After that I link the .ai file (with the Adobe RGB image) into a InDesign document. I export the InDesign doc using preset PDF/X-4 and make a colour conversion to ISO Coated v2, preserve numbers.
So what you are saying, in that pdf I would still have a Adobe RGB image, because it is linked into the Illustrator file? Or am I mistaken?
For digital presses, I definitely recommend placing RGB images. If you’re printing directly from InDesign, you’ll likely want to ensure you’re specifying the right ICC color profile for that printer, or use a profile that reflects how the printer has been calibrated (e.g. Gracol).
David,
FWIW, I would personally NEVER recommend printing directly from InDesign (or for that matter Illustrator). Export PDF (or in the case of Illustrator) save PDF/X-4 and print that, even if to a conventional printer from Acrobat. Acrobat’s printing capabilities significantly eclipse those of InDesign (and Illustrator).
– Dov
Hi David
I really hope you can help me with an combined InDesign/Illustrator issue.
Where I work, we always place pixel-based RGB images into InDesign, and when exporting the pdf we do a CMYK colour conversion. We use the icc profile our printhouse recommend. And always Convert to destination (Preserve numbers).
The preset varies from PDF/X-1a or PDF/X-4, again depending on what our printhouse recommends to the specific case.
However, sometimes we place CMYK Illustrator files into our InDesign doc. And I see a tendency that people import pixel-based RGB images into these Illustrator files.
So when I export an InDesign doc which include an Illustrator file with an RGB image, will it convert the RGB image to the CMYK profile I choose?
I hope my question is clear, english is not my native language. Sorry.
Best regards,
Troels
Troels,
I am not David, but I think I can answer your query.
If you place Illustrator content into InDesign (preferably via PDF exported either as High Quality Print or PDF/X-4; never use PDF/X-1a for this purpose), any RGB in the placed content will either be passed through or converted to the exported PDF from InDesign in the same manner as native content.
– Dov
Hello Dov, It’s very clearly explained and I both learnt and inpired, I can see that you are a true technical veteran who has a fair view in discussion and knowledge sharing. I am continually strive for learning an optimized RGB workflow, however in the other “~planet” forum I had sour response, had a feeling that those CMYK guru fundamentally is not that much accepting RGB workflow, neither contributing comments nor solid input is made….only generalized comments is a sidetrack and not so focused way. May be it’s my bad to use an inappropriate title, maybe I’m overacting…I don’t know, but seeing your participation in various places sets a very positive impression to me on forum, but some others is just using others title to promote, steer or influence others towards it’s personal interest or benefit…and this makes me feel not that much of comfort for sure. Anyway maybe I have to learn this unspoken rules in forum of the internet world. I’m really interested in striving the RGB workflow to optimize for RGB-capable device capability.
Hi George,
To specifically answer your question…
Content saved as PDF from either Illustrator or Photoshop or exported from InDesign placed into an InDesign document maintains whatever source profiles were in the placed PDF file.
For example, if you place (via link) a JPEG raster image tagged with an sRGB ICC profile into a SWOP CMYK Illustrator document and then save that as a PDF/X-4 file with no color conversion and with the source profiles preserved, placing that PDF/X-4 file into an InDesign document preserves the sRGB color space and profile of the image in that placed Illustrator-exported PDF file, even if the default RGB color space of the InDesign document is Adobe RGB, for example. If you subsequently export PDF/X-4 from InDesign, again without any color conversions, that object with sRGB and its profile will end up in the final exported PDF file.
There is only one got’cha area that you should be aware of in this scenario and ironically, it has nothing to do with placed, color-managed RGB or LAB, but rather, with incompatible CMYK color spaces.
If in the previous example, the Illustrator document was created with SWOP CMYK, the PDF/X-4 PDF export will have a Output Intent and profile for SWOP CMYK, as would be expected. HOWEVER, if our hypothetical InDesign document is setup for FOGRA37, at the time the Illustrator PDF/X-4 file is placed, this mismatch is not detected. Effectively as currently implemented, when placing PDF/X-4 in either Illustrator (by link) or in InDesign, the Output Intent profile is totally ignored!! For critical CMYK-based work, this could be a real problem. In this care, ironically, the fidelity of RGB is better-preserved than CMYK!!! :-(
Yes, we are aware of this issue at Adobe and hopefully in our next major revision of PDF export we can address this issue (although quite frankly, choices will effectively need to be to either ignore the mismatch or do an immediate CMYK=>C’M’Y’K’ conversion with the possible option of maintaining pure colorants).
All this having been said, our recommendation at Adobe is to export/save PDF as PDF/X-4 with no color conversions at PDF creation time. A secondary option would be the High Quality Print conversion options with absolutely all profiles embedded and no color conversion at PDF creation time.
Hopefully this gives you a bit more insight and either comfort or discomfort as to the processes in place.
– Dov
Hello Dov,
It’s good to see you in places where quality graphic arts/CMS discussion is in place. For your reply to Troels, I thought the issue is about how adobe handles netted or chained content with icc profile tagged… and what about source profile, destination profile, rendering intent, preserve number…etc.
Logically, if everything is well tagged and late binding approach is honoured across the adobe softwares…the final color space conversion seems to be key in terms of the outcome.
Thus, for illustrator file w/ multi color space images imported, or multi color vectors/gradients…etc should be exported in what format and with what setting?
For intermediate authorizing software like Indesign, how it integrate such different import from Illustrator or PDF, and how it export the file.
Finally, is there any normalization of PDF that needs to be done in order to pass the PDF to printer? PDFX/4 is most late binding, but can printer as the final gate keeper able to handle these chains of content netting?
THANKS
I am sure this is a dumb question but I am a beginner and I have no idea. I am creating a portfolio to submit to graphic design programs and one of the programs wants our work in a PDF format, with RGB colors. I had already created several of my documents (in InDesign) and selected “print” in the Intent drop down menu when creating a new document. So now I need to convert the colors to RGB from CMYK. What is the best/easiest way to do this?
You might want to check with whoever gave you those directions. They “might” have actually meant that you shouldn’t convert RGB to CMYK as opposed to converting everything to RGB.