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What takes precedence: dictionary or hjs?

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    • #57810
      JoAnn
      Member

      I'm working on a 300 page book, justified, in CS4. Don't think I 've totally gotten a grip on the ID dictionary. I've set my hyphenation settings:

      words with at least 5 letters

      after first 4 letters

      before last 4 letters

      hyphen limit 3

      hyphen zone 3 picas, slider set completely to right: fewer hyphens

      Justification, full justified with Adobe para composer: Word 80/90/133

      Letter -1/0/1

      Glyph 100/100/101

      Copy on the whole looks very good, but where it does hyphenate, it will break in very odd places, not standard US english breaks. Client is annoyed, though really there are very few instances.

      Do custom h&j settings override dictionary? Do I have to “teach” every instance where breaks are not standard?

      Thanks in advance

    • #57815

      .. where it does hyphenate, it will break in very odd places, not standard US english breaks ..

      First thing to check is if the langauge applied to your text is, in fact, US English. This sounds like the text is set to another language.

    • #57824
      JoAnn
      Member

      Jongware said:

      .. where it does hyphenate, it will break in very odd places, not standard US english breaks ..

      First thing to check is if the langauge applied to your text is, in fact, US English. This sounds like the text is set to another language.


      If I highlight the entire text chain, dictionary is set on US English, but if I highlight paragraph by paragraph, dictionary is set to Swedish–I don't understand this. BTW, I inherited this file from someone else and am using it as a template.

    • #57825
      JoAnn
      Member

      Jongware said:

      .. where it does hyphenate, it will break in very odd places, not standard US english breaks ..

      First thing to check is if the langauge applied to your text is, in fact, US English. This sounds like the text is set to another language.


      Oh, wait a minute. Seems there was an override to some paras in body style set to swedish. Don't think that will work very well :-)

      But anyway, does the dictionary take precedence over h&j settings? I assume it would, but want to be sure.

    • #57828

      No, the dictionary and your H&J settings work in tandem — neither really “overrides” the other.

      That is, if a word can be hyphenated according to the dictionary as “dic~tion~ary”, and your H&J settings (wasn't that a Quark term?) are set to at least 4 characters after first/4 characters before last, InDesign will fetch the possible hyphenation points from the dictionary, then discard the ones that don't work with the settings (and in this case none will be left, so it won't hyphenate this particular word).

      The same goes for the Hyphen Limit; if ID already hyphenated the last word in three lines in a row, it won't hyphenate another one ever; regardless of what the dictionary says.

      The entire system works like this: InDesign examines every possible combination of justification and hyphenation for an entire paragraph. That leads to a long list of possible breaking points; but all of them should be “valid”, that is, none of them will have less than four characters when hyphenated, and none of them will result in more than 3 hyphenated words at line ends. Then it assigns a score to each of these solutions, based upon (I think) how much the spacing would diverge from your preferred values per single line. A second run on the paragraph then tries to avoid a tight-set line followed by a loose-set one; that also gets lots of “negative points”. Finally, the mathematically best set of breaking points is used.

      But the very first thing to do is assigning the correct language to all of your text! In your case it's not just the main reason for the badly broken words, it's the only reason. InDesign is extremely good in hyphenating “normal” text, and even does a fair job on specialized terminology (one of the reasons ID has a “medical” dictionary is because lots of medical terms are not based on English, but rather on Latin and Greek, which uses a different hyphenation system). Actually, most of the 'hyphenation errors' I encounter are in names, both foreign (“Sc-heidegger”) and, uhm, USA English (“Ma-cIntyre” — UK English hyphenates it correct!).

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