A Free, Vibe-Coded Adobe Suite? Our Reaction

You’ve probably heard the news about the free, vibe-coded suite of Adobe-like apps. Maybe you’ve even tried them. I had a pretty strong reaction when I first heard about this. And the more I sat with it, the less interested I was in whether or not these apps are really any good right now. I kept coming back to the bigger question. If this is possible today, what does it mean for the creative tools we’ve depended on? And what does it mean for our future? So I called our friend, Photoshop expert, Jesús Ramirez. I wanted to get his take on this because I had a feeling he might see things a little differently than I do. And I was right. We ended up having a really interesting conversation about how AI could change the future of creative software. And we explored possibilities and challenges and what it all means for creative professionals. We don’t see everything the same way. And that made it a really fun conversation to have. Hi, design friends. Welcome to The CreativePro Podcast. I’m Theresa Jackson and so happy you can join us. Just for being here, you can save $15 off a one-year CreativePro membership with the discount code podcast. And the same code works for $100 off any upcoming CreativePro event. We have one event left this year. The InDesign conference will be held online December 1st through the 4th. We hope you could be there. Okay, are you ready? Let’s hear my conversation with Jesús now. At the end, share what you think about all of this in the comments. Jesús, it’s so great to have you here. I sent you an email yesterday. We’re doing this like quick. This is something that feels kind of urgent to talk about. I’m feeling an urgent need to talk about. I sent you an email yesterday and I said, I’m sure you’ve heard about this clone of all the Adobe tools that’s come out. And I’ve just got my head spinning. I have such… Well, let me ask you, how do you feel? I want… No, you’re going to go first. Okay, I’ll go first. I have a lot of feelings. I have a lot of feelings. Okay, there’s two things happening, right? Number one is someone has vibe coded essentially all the Adobe apps and other apps, not just Adobe apps. But I see it in two ways. The first way that I see it is like this. I mean, there’s already a bunch of other Adobe clones that are free. This is not the first time it’s happened. It’s happened before. I mean, I’m not saying that DaVinci is a clone of Adobe apps, but DaVinci is an open source free app out there that people can use instead of Adobe products. There’s, I cannot remember the name, GIMP was the open source version of Photoshop. So these tools have existed forever. I mean, GIMP has been around since I was in school almost what, 20 years ago at this point. So this is not new. What’s new is the way that it was created, which is by essentially, from what I understand is vibe coding. Somebody vibe coded all the Adobe apps and apparently they’re very good. So that is a difference. It was done quickly. It was done well. And I think some people are scared. I’m not, I, I’m loving it for a lot of reasons. I think ultimately we, um, the consumer win one way or another. No, I’m not. Hold on a little. You responded to my email with an, an expletive that we’re not going to say. Yeah. Was that a joke or? No. That’s where I’m going. This is exactly where I’m going. So it, it’s going to be, I, um, you know, fingers crossed, right. Who knows what the future may bring, but a good thing ultimately for the consumers. And the reason being is presumably, um, and I’m not an attorney, your husband is, maybe we can talk to him, but one of the things that potentially will happen is that there’ll be some lawsuit that will take place for, for IP, but still a window, um, for IP purposes. Right. So if Adobe sues or whatever company, we’ll just, you know, company X Acme, you know, from the Roadrunner and, and, um, the Looney Tunes Acme company sues an individual for a vibe coding an app, then that I think does a lot for IP and what these AI tools can do ultimately could benefit artists because these AI tools are taking artists’ work presumably is the same thing for taking code. Right. So I could see a benefit of a company suing these vibe coding people, um, because now, now there is precedence for AI taking work or, you know, copyrighted work, which is the whole issue with, with artists or that doesn’t happen. And now we have all these amazing tools created by people who really use the tools and they, and like, I’m going to use the example. I don’t know if it’s any good. I haven’t tried it. Presumably this app is good, but now we have all these people it’s open source. So we have all these people that could say, you know what? I don’t like that. Photoshop doesn’t have this. I’m going to vibe code it into this app and they can do that. And I think that’s a benefit for all of us. So my language that I use in that email was that it’s like, Holy Christ, this is just going to blow up what we can do with these tools, because for the longest time ever, I mean, for valid reasons, right. I’m not a developer. Um, I, I had ideas, but I couldn’t get them on the app. It was extremely difficult, expensive. And there were so many limitations because of, um, you know, the plugins can only do so much. It’s expensive to create, or at the very least it used to be. Um, now I can go in there. I mean, I have a plugin. I put it, the plugin. Awesome. Thank you. And you know, it’s, uh, it’s a prompt fault. That’s a prompt fault. Exactly. It’s a Photoshop plugin that allows you to save prompts directly into the app. Version two is coming out for max, by the way. Um, I’ve been getting a lot of feedback on it and I implanted a lot of that, but that’s my point, right? Like there is no way I would have been able to create that plugin that fast. It took me roughly three, four days. And, um, version two took a little longer as I was going a little crazy on it. But the point is, is that there’s no way I would have been able to do that in the past. Right. Um, on my own, essentially for free, I only paid the, I prefer a clod, um, but chat, GPT and other services are equally good. I, you know, like just pay my monthly membership. I was able to, uh, vibe code this plugin and now you and everybody else can use, I put it up for free. Um, so, so I think that ultimately it’s a good thing that we are taking away the power of these big corporations and then we can now iterate on these tools. Um, was that your initial, like, that’s what I really want to get. Yes. What was your gut? Like right away? Well, this is, this is what I was talking to you off camera. Like, I feel like I live in two worlds, right? Obviously I do a lot of work for corporations and all of that, but you know, me as a person, I’m like F corporations, you know? Um, and I’ve always been, um, somebody who’s an early adopter when it comes to technology. And this technology is without a doubt, extremely scary. It’s changing a lot. Unfortunately, there are certain industries that are going to be impacted forever. Ours included. And although jobs will be lost and have been lost, there’s new jobs that will be created. I mean, just look at history, right? This is not the first time we have a revolutionary technology, right? At one point we had the printing press. At another point we got a computer, you know, at one point we were, uh, you know, riding around in carriages and the horses carriage. I’m a little older. I don’t think you lived through the horses carriage. But, but, but I mean, you know, I was too young to remember, but when desktop publishing first became a thing, I actually knew designers who originally were, and I was a child, of course, who were, uh, one of my friend’s dad was an old school designer, like, you know, hand, you know, pen and paper kind of thing. And then he was trying to get into computers in the early nineties. And I remember that, like him complaining about like, Oh, you know, back in my day, we used to do it with like a ruler or whatever. And I could see people in those times saying, Hey, that’s not real art. Real art is done by hand, you know, and I posted a video yesterday on my YouTube channel regarding prompting and somebody said, that’s, I’m trying to remember the direct quote, but the sentiment was you’re letting the computer do the work. That’s not art. And there were so many things I wanted to respond, but, um, the number one thing I wanted to respond is, uh, to the comment. That’s not, you know, like that’s not art. That’s the computer or whatever the exact quote was. And I’m like, well, are you doing everything by hand then? Are you painting? Are you drawing? You know, you’re doing things in the computer and whether you like to, like, when you say AI, what do you mean? Because there’s been AI in Photoshop since the Adobe Sensei days that are what, 10 years old at this point. So are you just talking about generative AI? Well, does that include the remove tool? You know, does that include neurofilters? Like where do you draw the line? Yeah. And it’s an arbitrary, it’s an arbitrary line and it doesn’t make any sense. And fine. You want to, you want to speak about art specifically? Well, you know, like how do you define that? Right. Like, are you going into a gallery and, you know, presenting your art pieces or are you providing a service for a client? Which is what I do. Like I’ve never had an art gallery show. And, um, you know, like my title may be quote unquote graphic artists, but that just simply means that I take a client’s need and I provide a service that they want. And like any business that needs to be done quickly, efficiently, and it’s better for them is better for me. Right. The faster I do the work that the, you know, if you want to divide it into an hourly rate, the more money I make. Right. So like these tools do help me do my job better and faster. But you’re not going to use Artcraft or what’s it called? Photocraft. The clone of Photoshop is Photocraft. You’re not going to switch to Photocraft to do your. Maybe not today, but you know, if in 10 years it’s better, sure. Why not? Like I love, you know, like I love Photoshop. Obviously I’ve been using this app for the better part of 25 years, I think is the best image editing application on the planet today. But that doesn’t mean that, you know, 10 years down the line, there could be an app that comes out, whether it’s this app or another app that’s five quoted or not, I don’t know, that comes out and it delivers better than what Photoshop does. Like there’s the transition, of course, will not be immediate because there’s two things, right? I’m very proficient in this particular app. And second of all, at the moment, at the time of recording this, I have not seen a single movie studio that I work with switch to another app. Everybody’s still using Photoshop. So is the industry standard at the moment? So if the industry and standard changes in the next 10 years, if I want to stay in the industry, then I have to change with it, you know, and I understand the fear that, again, I just said, I spent 25 years mastering this tool, but the world is moving, you know, and I got to move with it. That’s what I want to talk about. I wanted to have this conversation with you because I knew, intuitively knew, because I knew you very well, that we would have responded differently. I knew you were going to be more, I don’t know, more positive, more hopeful. Yeah, I mean, who knows if I’m right, but I’m definitely hopeful. That’s for sure. So I lived through the whole desktop publishing era, and yeah, my initial response to AI was, yeah, it feels the same as that, but it doesn’t feel like that anymore. And this really, this release of this whole suite of tools as a clone, essentially a clone of Adobe, felt like why the solid ground I walk on got rattled pretty hard. There is no, you’re absolutely right. I mean, that is a reality. The ground has been rattled. It doesn’t feel stable anymore. There feels like so much uncertainty. When I look at my career, and it’s been a long, wonderful career, I have made my livelihood on Adobe software. Whether working in a corporate environment as a production artist, or designing for clients, or training and coaching others, it’s been the central part of my career. And I guess I kind of just assumed it would always be there as long as I wanted it to carry me, and maybe it will, and maybe it won’t. But now, the possibility of creating a tool or a piece of software is completely changed. The development process for software used to take time, a year, months. New features took a lot of time. So there was a lot of stability and trust in the tools that we were using because they changed slowly over time. And those of us that embraced new technology could stay in front of that. And now, tomorrow, we could have, who knows, by the end of today, somebody could have vibe coded something that we haven’t even imagined. But that’s amazing, right? I mean, think about it this way. We now have YouTube. You and I could put out a show today, and it could be the most viewed show on the planet. We don’t have to wait for NBC, CBS, or whoever to come and offer us a show. So that’s how I see it. It’s an opportunity for people to continue creating. That’s what I don’t understand. People say, oh, well, AI now just creates for you. No, it doesn’t. Just like Photoshop never did anything for you. You can still use these tools to create. I don’t think that’s really the argument. It’s not about AI for me. It’s about the instability of the ground that we’re on. Unfortunately for us, we’re living through that transitioning period. But 10, 15 years down the line, my daughter, she’ll be a year old in a couple of weeks. By the time my daughter’s 18, out of high school, going into college, nobody’s going to be this freaked out about AI, because it would have been in their lives for 20 years. You think it’s all going to have stabilized. I mean, I love the hopefulness there. I really do. More stabilized in the context of where we are now, right? Because, I mean, just think of how disrupted the internet was. We lost travel. Maybe not to you, but what if you were a travel agent? Now you have Expedia and you have all these services that people’s businesses were destroyed, right? As a species, and I know I’m getting really woo-woo here, but as a species, we’ve essentially went 1800 years where everything was just the same. And then after the Industrial Revolution, things started changing every 20 years, right? We went from- That’s every 20 minutes. Cars. Yeah, now it’s every 20 minutes. So I feel like change, well, I mean, you can make an argument that certain technological advances have cons, right? Not everything is a pro. But you were talking about the way things used to be, but I feel like these technologies ultimately are a good thing, ultimately. Will people do bad things with them? Absolutely. Will there be some things that we need to fix socially, morally, politically for this to be a good thing for most people? Absolutely. I’m not saying that things are perfect, but I am saying that things are progressing the way that they always have. And the reason that I haven’t lived… I was too young to remember some of the big shifts in my life with the world. This is probably the biggest one that I’m actually super conscious. As I said, I was very young when desktop publishing came out. I was also relatively young when digital cameras started taking over film. So these shifts in industry, I was very young, but we’ve lived through them and we’ve gotten through. And in relationship to Photoshop, which is what the conversation is, I don’t want to steer too far away from that. But in relation to Photoshop, I’d like to think that my value is not… I know where every menu is in Photoshop. I’d like to think my value is not that I know a I’d like to think that my value is how I can put an image together. And whether I’m using a mouse or a keyboard to do that, or a voice prompt or a prompt, ultimately it doesn’t matter because it’s coming out of my head. I can guarantee you that if you put somebody who is a better artist, than me, and have them prompt something with AI, they’ll do a better job than me. Because they have that eye, they have that knowledge of composition, of color, and they’ll be able to create something that I wouldn’t, even though we both can type a prompt in a computer. A perfect example is a good friend of mine. I don’t know if you know Magdiel Lopez. Do you know Magdiel Lopez? He is the- I’m familiar with him. Yeah. Yeah. He’s the guy who currently has the Photoshop, the artwork in the Photoshop splash screen. When you first open up Photoshop, the picture that comes up, that’s his. Magdiel has come up with some incredible generations that I would have never been able to do. And then he takes the generations and he draws on top of them and he does his thing. And he’s an incredible artist. And he just takes this technology and takes it to the next level. And I think that’s what artists have always done. Photoshop first came out, even painter, forget Photoshop, let’s talk about Microsoft Paint. There’s incredible artists who do incredible artwork in Microsoft Paint that I’ll never be able to do. So I think this is just one of those tools that people are going to use to continue to develop. Let’s come back to this instability of where we’re at right now with the development of the tools that we use to create either our commercial work or our art. It’s not just that some sole engineer vibe coded a whole suite of applications. It’s that that’s possible. Yeah. It’s the possibility of it that’s so disrupting because. And I love it. Okay. I love this. You’re helping me. I like therapy for being in this instable place or unstable place. It’s not just the new tools, it’s Adobe tools themselves. It is exhausting. It is exhausting to try and stay even aware of all the changes that are coming at us. And I don’t really know how to deal with that from a perspective of somebody who creates training content. I’m really thinking about this from the role of a software trainer. I completely agree with you that success in the future, presently and in the future requires understanding the why and being able to see and being able to define what you want and being able to discern why something works and tells a story and why something else doesn’t. What does it look like to train those skills when the tools you’re using to train them change seemingly by the hour? It’s overwhelming. There’s that. I don’t know where we’re headed with it. I feel like I don’t feel secure in knowing that my Adobe tools are going to stay mostly the same for the next five years. I feel like. Why would you want them to? Because they’re familiar and I know how to use them, I guess. But well, yeah, but then then. I want my tools to change all the time. Like I was one of the people that was very happy when it went when Photoshop went into the creative cloud, because then now we have updates. Yeah, I like to see new tools. I like I like progress. I like. Like, let me be very specific about your question. I don’t want to digress again, but like you were talking about trainers, right, like. Now we have something to train every week, right? Like there’s a new tool this week. Hey, there’s a new model. Hey, there’s a new, you know, relight layer. Hey, there’s the light panel is now in photo, you know, like like there’s new content. But it is. But it isn’t at the moment. Anything could be absolutely tomorrow, right? Right. Like, yeah. So then but. See, like, I’m not worried about things becoming obsolete because let’s just say that Photoshop becomes obsolete tomorrow. Let’s say that a new CEO does a terrible Adobe CEO does a terrible job. And then this vibe coded app is incredible and everybody switches to it. Well, guess what? I’m opening tomorrow. I’m opening the the whatever app is called Training Channel, right? Because I still have, you know, 15 years of training experience. I can still create videos. I can still like all those skills are not gone. I’m just going to translate them to the next thing. Well, for the record, I don’t think that’s going to happen. I’m not afraid of that. I’m not. I mean, there’s these tools that we I played around with all of them. There’s issues in every single one of them that are that keep it far below a professional tool. And I don’t think there’s really any threat to Adobe specifically to that. But the threat is where we go from the future in the future when seemingly anybody can create the tool they need. They don’t need to rely on a company or a corporation to build their tool. They could build their own tool. And isn’t that amazing? Yes. But it’s also there’s some anxiety in there for me. Oh, man. Like, you know, personally, I’ve created a bunch of tools that I use and I have my whole setup and AI is all over this. There’s this this room and pushing I push a button and 30 things happen. And I love it. And, you know, going back to, you know, like how things, you know, things changing. I remember remember back in the day when when you would have to install Photoshop in with this and have that feeling of like, oh, my God, the new Photoshop CS2 just came out. What does it have? Oh, my God. Two new blending modes, hard mix and whatever else came out that year. And like that excitement, I still have whenever. But, you know, but then I have it once a year, maybe once every couple of years, because, you know, like I couldn’t afford to buy the six, seven hundred dollar discs or whatever they were. And that excitement of installing those discs and waiting like 30 minutes for it to install on my computer and then checking out those new features like I loved it. And to this day, I still do. Like I see an update come up on my credit cloud that says Photoshop beta has an update. I’m like, oh, let me go see what’s in there. And like, you know, I’m in the Photoshop pre-release. A lot of the times I already know what’s in there. But still, I still get that that joy of like, oh, here’s the tool that I’ve been seeing about in those pre-release calls. It’s super fun and super cool. And yes, it’s not the best tool at the moment. But what Photoshop tool has ever been perfect? None like Photoshop has never been a one click solution app. And then I get so frustrated hearing people say I hate AI. AI is terrible. You know, it’s ruining an art. OK, great. And then the next sentence is like, oh, this tool sucks. Like I try to use it and it’s terrible. I’m like, well, which one is it? Like, are you not going to use it? Are you going to use it? And if you’re using it and it’s terrible, then fix it. You’re in Photoshop, right? Like that’s the whole point of Photoshop. You have an image that kind of works and you just make it work because that’s what we’ve always done. It’s never been a one click solution. By the way, I played around with Photocraft. How was it? How was it? It looks like it loads super fast. I love that. I mean, they all load super fast and it looks like Photoshop and it opens a Photoshop file and it has smart objects. It has layer masks. It has the core stuff. But let me see. I took some notes here. Oh, I tried the select subject, right? It’s got select sky. Oh, no, I’m confusing that with Lightcraft. I’ll go back to that. In Photocraft, it has select subject and it’s terrible. Didn’t even come anywhere close to selecting the subject. It does have object finder, which was which was a touch better, but it’s not anywhere near the quality of where Photoshop is. The first tool that I downloaded was Lightcraft because I’ve been spending a lot of time editing in Lightroom. It’s my favorite place. Photoshop’s yours. You also use Lightroom too. But my favorite is Lightroom. So I tried Lightcraft. It was quick. I didn’t have to import images. It just sees the photos on my hard drive the way Bridge does. The panels for editing all look exactly the same. I went to masking and had masking. It had select sky and select subject, but guess how it selected them? Just put a gradient over the sky and put a radial gradient around the subject. Yeah, like that’s that’s not going to work. But again, it is also just the probably version one or something. Yeah, better, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, we were talking about putting generative AI in the hands of a talented artist and the amazing work that they can do now. Imagine hopefully what Photoshop engineers, Adobe engineers are going to do with this technology, hopefully come up with incredible tools that we’re just going to love. That’s my hope. Do you do you think Adobe is going to respond? I don’t think they have. I haven’t seen a response. Not to my knowledge. I was going to say I haven’t seen them respond. Not to my knowledge. They haven’t responded. Do I think? I don’t know. Like I said earlier, if a lawsuit comes our way now, now we’re talking about AI like that’ll be like a big IP AI thing. I don’t think it’s happened yet as far as I know. So like that’d be interesting to see. I mean, it would. I don’t think they’re going to. Yeah, totally wrong. I don’t think I mean, who knows? Obviously they’ll do what they’ll do. But if I were them, I wouldn’t. Yeah, I don’t I think it would be a very costly thing that I mean, it would be maybe good for the industry to establish some some ground rules of what’s fair and what’s not because it’s all the wild west right now. We don’t even know what copyright law means anymore. Yeah, but I don’t think they’re going to. I think they’re going to ignore it. I would if I were I think that’s a smart move. And God knows if I’m right. But like, oh, my light just went out. That’s weird. Yeah. That was weird. I can’t reach it. Otherwise, I would turn it back on. But let me see if I can get a little more light here by putting a white screen on this side of the monitor. There we go. We can hear you. But I look all shiny next to you there. That works. OK, cool. What was I going to say? I don’t know what I was going to say. We were talking about Adobe’s response if they’re going to respond. Yes. So I don’t think it’s smart because and, you know. For an application to be successful, ultimately, they need a lot of users. They need a lot of engagement. They need a lot of a lot of eyeballs. If Adobe sues, it’s going to give them a lot of eyeballs. But if they ignore them, who knows that now it’s on them to get the eyeballs on themselves. And who knows if they could do it? Because ultimately, no matter how good your app is, no matter how good, you know, anything is your art, your YouTube channel, whatever you’re training, you need eyeballs. And that’s the most difficult thing to get. And by suing, Adobe is going to get give it to them for free. I think that Adobe is also very invested in their enterprise clients. Yeah. That’s that’s really where it’s at. And that’s the power of the whole creative cloud ecosystem. It’s not the individual tools. It’s how everything works together. Artcraft isn’t doing that. I don’t think there’s I mean, that’s not what it’s about. So, you know, there is an argument for the hobbyist or a student or just a curious person using our craft and maybe making some cool stuff for it. But I think in a professional environment, this doesn’t make any sense. You don’t have any of the support system, the community built around it. Well, not yet, though, but they could. There’s a perfect there’s a perfect example. Blender. Blender is an open source software. Right. And in my opinion, I’m not a 3D artist from but for whatever my opinion is worth in that industry, I think it’s the best tool at the very least is the most accessible, the one with the largest community, the one that has all the free tutorials online. So so as a software, they’ve done an incredible job of building a community on an open source software. So so there’s a model there that proven to work whether they can do it or not. That’s a whole different story. There wasn’t really a piece of the Adobe community doing that kind of 3D work when Blender started. So there that may have given it given them an advantage to build that community. I guess what I’m saying is I don’t see Adobe users, not in not in huge numbers, canceling their Adobe subscriptions and jumping to our craft. I know there’s some excitement about the possibility of being able to do that. But I’ve also I mean, my personal opinion on this is if I’m making my living on this tool, then I should be paying for it. All of them, the whole suite of Adobe applications. Why would I not want to invest in the software that I’m using to make a living from? There’s the trust factor that, you know, an open source thing. Who knows? I don’t know. But really, I think what really matters to me in this conversation is what it feels like right now. It feels so my world feels rocked. But it is. So you’re not wrong about that. That is a reality. The world has been rocked. Your world, my world, so many industries, specifically ours in this conversation has been rocked. There is no denying that. I’m just very hopeful by it. And I think ultimately, progress is good. And it does not come without any unfortunate side effects. Yeah. Yeah. I’m checking my notes here to see if there’s it was there any anything we didn’t cover that you wanted to share your thoughts on this, your feelings. I love your hopefulness. I feel better. I’m glad you do. You know, like, yes, I am. I mean, I just want to be very realistic, right? I am very hopeful, but I also don’t want to sound naive, like I don’t think realize or empathize with people whose livelihoods have been affected by this, because that is a reality that there are certain not necessarily industries, but maybe I was actually talking to Aaron Nace from Learn yesterday and about this whole topic. And one of the conversations that we had was about how in our opinion, the people that are the most affected so far in terms of like percentage wise are entry level users, because he gave me the example of I think he was talking about somebody who he knows who runs an Etsy store. And they essentially took a picture of their product and then AI generated like shot photos. So like these professional looking shot photos, this person no longer needs to hire an entry level photographer to do that because they can do it with AI. So that entry level photographer has been affected by the industry because now people are willing, the people who are willing to spend money require something, somebody who’s a little more seasoned. And that is like the downside, right? Like the people in the beginning are getting affected and they won’t be able to get quote unquote seasoned to take the jobs that still require an actual photographer and that can’t just be done by AI at the moment. And how do we train that? That’s where my head’s at. How do we train those up and coming creative people to skip right over the learning the basics of production and get into creative direction, which is really the requirement to succeed now is to be able to creatively direct and have a vision. How do we take a student from not having done any of the work to being able to creatively direct it? I’ll give you my subjective view on this and I don’t know if I’m right. See, the thing is, we train the same way we always have, generally speaking. The problem is that there is no longer room for so many people to come in because AI has taken a lot of these entry level jobs. So the people that do come in need to be a little more serious and focused than maybe somebody coming in say 10 years ago when there were more opportunities. Just because there just isn’t as much opportunity anymore. So you kind of have to go in with the intent that you’re going to have to push through in the beginning just because there are fewer opportunities and possibly even fewer opportunities as time goes on for entry level people. I’m a little less worried for people who have experience if they’re willing to transition their skills and not want to continue doing things the way that they always have. Because again, in my opinion, the eye is really, really hard to replace. Like what’s in your brain is really hard to replace. One of the examples I always give people is our friend Zuccarni. She has an incredible eye. Incredible eye. There might be a menu that I know that she doesn’t. There might be a keyboard shortcut that I know that she doesn’t. But there is no way I could read or train my eye to be like hers unless I continue to do this for another 15 years. At which point she will have another 15 years on me and her eye will be even better. But I could show her a Photoshop document and immediately her eye spots all these things that maybe I could spot, but it would take me like 10 minutes or maybe not at all. And I think that’s where the value is with people who are seasoned at the moment. They just have to adapt to the new world. And going back to your statement, the ground has been taken and we kind of have to find our balance again. Lisa Carney’s eye goes beyond being able to spot the flaws in something that’s already created. She has an incredible vision for what’s possible and what’s going to work. She’s where us mortals would do 10 different drafts trying to find the thing that maybe works. She’s already got a vision of where she’s headed with it. And maybe that’s something we’re born with. Maybe. I mean, I mean, she’s been in the industry since I don’t want to date her, but a long time. Yeah. So so, you know, it’s experience. Right. And that’s I think that’s the most difficult thing to I mean, you can’t teach it. Right. You have to earn it. And I think that I think what you know, you’re talking about feelings. Right. Because I, I also have been scared. I’m not going to lie to you and say, oh, like I’ve always been hopeful. Like when you first see something like, holy moly, this thing can do something I I’m very good at, but I can do it instantly. You know, like I don’t people don’t need to pay me anymore for this. It is a scary thought. But. I it’s like I just don’t see another choice. Right. I like this type of work. So what am I going to do? Not do it. And I also do know that. You know, 20 years from now, there still will be designers, there will still be people designing what that looks like, I have no idea. It’s going to be different, but it’s going to be different. But I would like to be still be a part of it. You know, like maybe I mean, I’ll be in my mid 60s by then. Who knows? But, you know, it’s either that or I just say, well, you know, I don’t want to learn anything new because whatever. And it’s valid. Right. If I don’t want to learn something new, then I don’t have to just go do something else. But I’m not going to complain and say, oh, this is terrible because what I used to do back in, you know, 2002 when I started being a designer doesn’t work anymore. Like like like that’s not true. That’s not true for anything. Like there’s nothing in the world that you say, hey, back in 2002, I did it this way and I want it to be the same way today. Like that wouldn’t work with anything. Doesn’t work with medicine, doesn’t work with, you know, nothing, nothing, you know, so I’m hopeful. But again, who knows if I’m right? I love your hopefulness. I really do. I hope you’re right. We’ll see. Yeah. In the meantime, you know, I’m just going to have to ride the wave and weigh with the instability of the ground that we’re standing on and keep an open mind, paying attention to everything that’s going on. It’s going to be really interesting to see if Adobe responds to this, which we both don’t think they’re going to. And if it gets a following, you know what? If if others create more tools, that’s the thing I am pretty certain we’re going to see. This is the first we’re going to see more and more of this. You know what? I made the analogy earlier. I’ll make it again. I think it’s going to be a lot like YouTube where everybody’s going to want to make a show and ninety nine point nine percent of them are terrible. And there will be some winners, some, you know, big, big hits that you and I may end up using. But I don’t think it’s going to be, you know, like like I don’t think there’s gonna be a hundred fantastic Photoshop’s. You know, I think there might be one that that comes out and it’s like an actual competitor. Again, I haven’t used this app. I don’t know if it’s good. I don’t know if it’s bad. I’m just saying this could be it. Maybe not. But maybe there will be an app at some point that somebody codes that is that can compete with Photoshop, but it’ll take a lot, a lot for it to become the industry standard for many reasons. Because it’s not just Photoshop in a vacuum, a professional environment. It’s all the other tools that surround it and the ecosystem and, you know, the creative cloud ecosystem that is part of that. That’s not going to get replaced by by coding individual tools. You know, having said that, I think Photoshop is going to lose a lot of I can’t even think of how to say it. I was going to say special needs, but that doesn’t sound right. A lot of a lot of people who need Photoshop for one very specific reason. Right. So, for example, as a trainer and as a YouTuber, I can tell you this. One of the keywords that was really popular for Photoshop in the past 20 years that has decreased about 70 to 80 percent is removed background in Photoshop. Of course, because now. Yeah, because there’s a million tools that will do it for you. Our phone does it for us. Yeah, exactly. So stuff like that, I’m sure will happen where. You might have only needed Photoshop for 5 percent of its capabilities and a vibe coded tool, Canva, or, you know, the free open source, the older ones, which I named earlier, I already forgot the names. They will be able to take care of those needs for you. But in terms of like the industry standard photo imaging application, I still see Photoshop holding that title for a long time because to transition an entire industry from the app, it’s been around for 30 plus years to something that was just created without any history. And you’re talking about the trust and all of that. I see that being very, very. Now, the gap between them may close, but Photoshop for the time being, at least foreseeable future, I think will still be on top. Yeah. And I hope you’re right that this inspires Adobe to improve Photoshop along with everything new that’s coming out. Make it faster, make it be more responsive. I’d like to see more focus on that. But that’s probably a whole other conversation. I think this is a great place to wrap this up. Sounds good. I feel better, Jesús. Thank you. Good. How much do I owe you? Oh, man. Therapist’s charge. I don’t even know what therapist’s charge. I’ll send you my invoice. I’ll go research. I’ll ask Claude and then I’ll send you. Oh, there you go. Ask Claude. OK. All right. Thank you so much.