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Inch symbols (double prime) being changed to quotation marks!

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    • #56350
      Lee UK
      Member

      We've had this problem for years where I work and I wondered if anyone could come up with a solution.

      We design catalogues which contain a lot of measurements, and we use inch marks (double prime) via the Glyphs panel. The trouble is, whenever we open our documents on another machine, the double primes are automatically changed to quotation marks, due to the “Use Typographer's Quotes” setting in the prefs.

      This means we have to turn the “Use Typographer's Quotes” setting off, so the double primes aren't changed. However, consequentially, our catalogue is full of typewriter quotation marks and apostrophes (as our copy comes from various sources who do not all use correct quotation marks).

      Would anyone know a solution to this problem?

    • #56351
      David Blatner
      Keymaster

      I don't understand why a document would change when you move it from one computer to another. The Use Typographer's Quotes should only kick in when you type, copy/paste, use find/change… something like that, when the character is being changed anyway. You're saying that the glyph changes when you open the document itself?

      Just to clarify, are you using “straight double quotes” or the “double prime” glyph? In general, the “true” inch march is a double-prime (Unicode 02BA in Symbol, I believe). Not sure how to type it, besides the Glyphs panel. If you can't type it, you probably can't make it with a grep style (which is what you'd probably want). Hm.

    • #56352
      Eugene Tyson
      Member

      Can't you just insert with the glyph panel then copy and paste it into the GREP style dialog box?

    • #56353
      David Blatner
      Keymaster

      Sure, Eugene. I probably wasn't clear enough. I meant that there was no easy way to automatically insert/type that double-prime character. But yes, you could use it to style the character after it were there.

    • #56354

      Lee, if you can't educate your copywriters, there is not a lot you can do up front. Either disable automatic quotes and expect straight ones in your plain text, or enable them and you have to check every inch and foot mark (as well as minutes and seconds, by the way).

      I think you're best off with enabling them, because you can use a GREP search to look for digit-then-curly-quote — the most common case where you want to change them. The opposite, checking which straight quotes to change to curlies, is a bit more difficult.

      You can search for this, using GREP Find: for single quotes,

      (?<=d)~]

      and for double quotes,

      (?<=d)~}

      You can replace them with straight quotes from your text font (use the code ~' — that's a tilde, followed by a single straight quote, for feet, or ~” — tilde, straight double quotes for inch).

      If you are inclined to typographically correctness, follow David's advice and insert the actual Symbol symbols. For these, you should replace with either x{2032} (single) or x{2033} (double), and don't forget to set the font to Symbol in the Replace With formatting field. (I lean towards ridiculous correctness and always create a character style containing just “Symbol”, especially for things like these.)

      Whatever you change it to: do not hit the Replace All button straight away! Use “Change/Find Next” until you are fairly sure your document does not contain a phrase such as

      “How old are you my child?” “I am 5″, answered Mary.

      (It gets a bit difficult when that question is, “How tall are you my child?” Then you'd need some more context.)

    • #56370
      Lee UK
      Member

      Thanks very much for the advice, guys! :)

      It hadn't occurred to me to use GREP find and replace before we send to print, but yes, that will work and we'll probably be implementing that idea. Thank you!

      David, yes our double primes were definitely being changed when we moved the document between computers. When we turned off Use Typographer's Quotes, this problem went away. Strange, I know! It can't be a font problem as the problem affects all our different brands of catalogues, each of which uses a different font.

    • #56371
      Lee UK
      Member

      Jongware,

      I really like your suggestion of using the actual Symbol symbols. I will be doing that!

      Just one more question: your GREP Find code only seems to only find the angled/curly typographer's quotes.

      (?<=d)~]

      I'm not very good with GREP. Could you tell me the Find code for finding the straight (typewriter) quotes too? We get plenty of these in our copy. (Better still, is there a single GREP code that will find both straight and angled quotation marks?)

      Thanks again.

    • #56375

      Oh absolutely. The magic GREP code to search for one out of a set of characters is [this] — every single character between the square brackets. [this], for example, will find either a single 't', 'h', 'i', or 's', and [that] will find a single 't', 'h', or 'a' (the duplicate 't' is ignored).

      This GREP search will find either a straight single quote or a single curly one, and only when preceded by a digit:

      (?<=d)[~'~]]

      and you can find its twinned brothers using

      (?<=d)[~”~}]

    • #56416
      Lee UK
      Member

      Fantastic! Thanks so much, Jongware! :)

    • #56466
      Gavin Anderson
      Participant

      Okay, maybe I'm missing something here, but on the Mac we've always used the following (where available in the font face):

      double prime (inch mark), using CONTROL + SHIFT + ' (quote mark)

      single prime (foot mark), using CONTROL + ' (quote mark)

    • #56467
      Gavin Anderson
      Participant

      But, I think that Jongware is on even a better track for solving your text received from outside. I was merely talking about typing them in when you are setting the type yourself.

      P.S. I disagree with using the Symbol font, if it can be helped, though, because many fonts have their own styled double and single prime that go with the font.

    • #56470

      i do the same as claidhemdanns.

      i check the “use typographer's quotes” and then the bracket keys to get quotes and apostropes.

      so

      option + [ = open quote “

      option + shift + [ = close quote ”

      option + ] = open single quote ‘

      option + ] = closed single quote ’

    • #56476
      Lee UK
      Member

      Claidheamdanns and Svitallo,


      Yes, we can type primes using Option/Ctrl and the relevant keys, however, that doesn't solve our problem: every time we open the document on a different machine, they change to quotation marks (unless we turn off the “use typographer's quotes” option).

      Speaking of formatting, this post inexplicably appears to be in bold type! (I probably should spend more time getting to grips with this interface!)

    • #56487

      Lee: you need to make sure you're using proper primes, not just straight quotes (which is what Ctrl-' gives you), as David and Jongware explained above.

      If you're on a Mac, you can easily find the actual prime and double prime symbols using the system Character Viewer (Character Pallette in pre-Snow Leopard versions) from the top menubar next to the clock (if it's not there you may need to turn it on in System Preferences > Language and Text > Input Sources). The prime and related symbols are listed in 'Punctuation', or in Snow Leopard you can actually type the word 'prime' into the search box at the bottom and it will find it for you, and then you can click on it to insert at the cursor.

      From the Character Viewer you can also see which fonts contain these characters; if you're using them a lot you might want to make sure you're using a font that includes them, or at least (if you don't have control over the font) one that's a better match for your text than Symbol (an ugly font if ever there was one).

      Once you have chosen your font, you can do a GREP search to find and replace quotes with primes as described above (you can insert the prime character from the Character Viewer into the Replace box). If you aren't using a text font that includes the prime character, you can then set up a GREP style in your paragraph style to put the primes and double primes into a character style that has the appropriate font.

    • #57943
      Gavin Anderson
      Participant

      Lee, I'm with David. I also find it odd that the quotes would show differently from one computer to another, if they were constructed correctly in the first place. Did orielwen's solution work?

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