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• • August 12, 2016 at 6:57 am #87398
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    I need your help! I’m having a dilemma. I recently scored a job designing a print magazine but am now having issues with someone on their production team regarding my workflow. The following are the “file creation rules” she says I need to follow in order to make their job possible (exporting the files for printing):

    —–

    File Creation Rules I Was Given

    1. If you want to put a background on a page, create a 300 dpi psd file that is the size of the page and do all the work within the single file. When your background looks the way you want it to look, flatten the file, convert to CMYK and save as a tiff.

    2. All links in InDesign should be tiffs or pdfs, small vector artwork is okay. Complex images and patterns created in Illustrator will slow down InDesign and could make it very difficult or impossible to export as a pdf or print.

    (She elaborated: As for tiffs versus jpgs, you could definitely get away with using maximum quality jpgs most of the time. However, I was told to only use tiffs when I started working here, and since they work fine, I do just that. From what I’ve read, the main problem that can be created with jpgs is color interpretation and banding issues. I’ve also read that every time jpgs are saved the compression causes deterioration. I’ve never had a problem with a file not packaging, printing, or exporting because of a tiff. As long as they’re not oversized and don’t contain multiple layers, they’ll work really well. As long as the vector isn’t too complex it won’t make a difference, but more points on a path equals more interpreting and it can cause the file to stall or worse, crash InDesign during the export. Even when we do manage to get a pdf, a really complex vector image can cause the file to not print.)

    3. If possible, all effects should be made in a Photoshop document and place in InDesign.

    (She elaborated: Most of the times I’ve layered elements and used effects in InDesign I’ve gotten away with it, but you have to understand that when you do, it pushes the program a little more and sometimes it’s too much to handle during a pdf export or a print. You don’t have the benefit of testing whether or not it will work, though, so you have to err on the side of caution. Also, while InDesign is vector based, effects like shadows and feathers are raster, so there is no quality benefit to creating them in InDesign. I’ve encountered many problems with transparencies created in InDesign creating weird boxes in my pdfs and it’s so annoying. You’re better off just building the file in Photoshop in the first place. As a plus, you only have to worry about a single file being placed on a page.)

    4. The actual size of your artwork should be very close to the size of the artwork as it appears when placed in InDesign.

    (She elaborated: Yes, InDesign can handle “cropping” images, but if the images are really oversized and interacting with other oversized elements and effects, it can, and did, cause problems. In this case, we were unable to export a pdf and had to spend hours diagnosing and fixing the issue.)

    —–

    So, a few things:

    This workflow seems odd to me. Am I somehow out of touch with how it’s done in the industry? From my experience, what they’re asking from me is either out of date or ass-backward. Am I just ignorant?

    I do know Indesign can have issues with flattening and outlining content when it comes to the export, but is it as difficult as she is saying it is? Can’t Indesign handle these layers and elements? Do you guys avoid vectors? Predominately use tiffs (they are pretty large files!)? Create a lot of artwork in Photoshop? Pre-crop your photos before placing in Photoshop? I need help and perspective here.

    Thanks so much!

  • August 12, 2016 at 7:25 am #87401
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    Natalie, I love this list you provide because it perfectly describes the workflow of someone who learned how to do things in the late 1990s and early 2000s and now says, “look, it worked for me… it still works for me… I don’t want to risk problems, so I’m not going to change it.”

    The problem is that these days we have to become more efficient, more productive. And the only way to do that is to change. And the only thing we can change is our workflow.

    We have a number of articles about file formats, including: https://creativepro.com/tiff-vs-psd-vs-eps-vs-pdf-vs.php

    We also tackle the old rule of “convert to cmyk” here: https://creativepro.com/import-rgb-images-indesign-convert-cmyk-export.php

    More tech details here: https://creativepro.com/drop-20-pounds-indesign/

    As for doing effects in Photoshop… you’re talking about things like drop shadows? No, I would definitely do those in InDesign.

  • August 12, 2016 at 8:13 am #87408
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    Hi David,

    Thank you so much! I read all of those articles and they really helped.

    How should I respond to her about creating artwork within Photoshop? She claims when she exports to a PDF for print that my layers and “effects” cause her export to crash — apparently as Indesign flattens/outlines the artwork. Or if it does export correctly, there are weird lines and boxes that show up around elements or elements drop out entirely. Is this an error on her part? Or something we can workaround or prevent? How do I navigate this discussion without conceding to design mostly in Photoshop?

    Thanks!

  • August 12, 2016 at 8:53 am #87410
    DCurry

    Participant

    I’ve worked in prepress for almost 20 years, and it sounds like maybe the RIP being used by the print shop is way out of date. If so, then I could see where these things might cause the RIP to crash or to not render properly, but I don’t see it being a problem during the PDF export from ID step. I don’t think I’ve ever had an ID file crash during PDF export. Ever!

    Is it possible that you can export the PDF yourself and give them that? That would at least eliminate the InDesign crashing scenario she describes, although if her RIP is really that bad they still might have problems processing the PDF.

    The weird lines and boxes are the result of areas with transparency effects being improperly flattened. I would bet money that they are using an older PostScript-based RIP instead of a modern APPE (PDF-based) engine. A modern APPE engine doesn’t do any flattening until the last possible stage, and they do a better job of it.

    Unfortunately, you’re pretty much at the mercy of the print shop’s workflow. RIP upgrades or changeovers are very expensive (and involve retraining staff and revamping the entire workflow process, along with the growing pains that come along with it), so don’t expect them to change just for you. Your options are to either give them what they say they need to successfully produce your project, or find another printer (there are plenty who can handle your files easily).

    Given that choice, I’d choose the latter!

  • August 12, 2016 at 8:54 am #87412
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    What you’re describing is probably the results of “flattening.” Take a look at this post on the yucky discolored box syndrome and her link to Steve’s Dreaded White Box problem:
    https://creativepro.com/eliminating-ydb-yucky-discolored-box-syndrome.php

    Those are often problems when people use spot colors in InDesign instead of process colors (but don’t realize they’re using spots).

    See this article about the thin white lines: https://creativepro.com/when-you-see-thin-white-lines-in-your-pdf-files.php

    The best way to avoid all that is to work with a commercial printer who will accept PDF/X-4 files (instead of the dumb ol’ PDF/X-1a). I talk about how to make good quality PDFs to send to print in my title InDesign Insider Training: Print PDFs at lynda.com.

  • August 12, 2016 at 9:35 am #87414
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    DCurry and David, Thanks for your responses. I’m still learning a bit about this process, so the education and expert opinions help.

    If she says my ID files cause a crash at export, then perhaps she’s referring to the print shops process of ripping the file? Excuse my ignorance, but does this mean my production team is providing the printer with a PDF or with an ID file? Or does the ripping process involve just the PDF the client provides to them?

    I can run an export of the PDF and see how it responds. But it’s pretty telling if you’re saying, DCurry — with your 20 years of experience — that you’ve never had an ID file crash during PDF export ever. I’ve never had that issue, either.

    To be honest, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are using an out-of date print shop. This magazine has been around since the 1950s and it’s a small team of people who aren’t exactly on the cutting edge of technology, LOL. It actually makes me sad to think they are potentially making the process more complicated for themselves. But like I said before, I’m in an awkward position because here is the new girl to tell you you’re outdated and ass-backwards, haha! (THAT’S a fun conversation.)

    David, I’ll check out those articles. I’ve had issues with the thin lines before and I know sometimes they only show up when previewing the PDF and not actually in print. Ooo! I’ll check out your Lynda course. (Now how to get the production team to take the course…)

    Let me check out these articles and see if I have any follow-up questions. However, is there a list of must-haves a print shop needs to offer that I can review — hypothetically if the magazine were to go with a better print shop?

    Thank you both!

  • August 12, 2016 at 9:51 am #87416
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    Oh, I was also told to avoid using protected Typekit fonts in my designs. They said it causes problems on their end. Could this be a potential hangup for a print (or just an outdated one)?

  • August 12, 2016 at 11:23 am #87422
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    It’s great that you can breathe new ideas into their organization. There will be resistance. There always is. There are thousands of organizations like the one you’re at, and they want to become more productive but they don’t want to learn to change. Sigh. Be gentle with them.

    You should learn about how your files are sent to the printer. PDF is best.

    Ripping is what they do on their printer. If you print from MS Word, the printer “rips” it. (Technically it means “raster image processor,” which means turning everything into tiny tiny dots.)

    If InDesign crashes when a PDF is exported, there is something very wrong. That’s not normal, no matter what you have in the document.

    If you want a great education, read this post and, more importantly, the comments after it — especially those from Dov Isaacs, who is at Adobe and has long been one of the great gurus of PDF and printing technology: https://creativepro.com/pdf-print-engine-throw-us-your-transparency-effects.php

    The comment about TrueType is almost certainly outdated. (There are protected fonts that cannot be embedded into PDFs, but they’re not just truetype and they’re relatively rare.)

    And, in the meantime, you should tell them they should send you to The InDesign Conference in DC in November!

  • August 12, 2016 at 12:28 pm #87426
    DCurry

    Participant

    I suspect the Typekit issue is because maybe they don’t have the latest version of Creative Cloud and don’t want to pay for it. If you are using Typekit for some fonts, they don’t get packaged with the rest of the fonts – whoever opens the file next will need Typekit active to use the fonts.

    However, this is easily avoided by supplying PDFs – all fonts will be embedded into the PDF.

    As for a list of must-haves for potential print shops, it’s best to look for one that wants to accept PDFs. If PDF is their preferred file format, then you can figure they have the necessary components in place to deal with them properly. However, know that with PDF submission comes great responsibility on your part to ensure that bleeds are included as necessary and that you’ve already proofread the whole thing and no changes will be needed. Yes, it certainly is possible to make corrections to PDFs (if the print shop has invested in the right tools and people who know how to use them), but it can be more challenging to do so.

  • August 15, 2016 at 7:28 am #87492
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    Sorry the the lag in reply (had to let this rest over the weekend).

    I did find out which printer the magazine uses. Democratic Printing (https://www.democratprinting.com). I downloaded their Prepress Guide to see if I could learn anything about their technology. The guide is located here (https://nebula.wsimg.com/de5766921d2ae45ff8d00ec7f956391b?AccessKeyId=F026E75F15D5B659F7A6&disposition=0&alloworigin=1).

    I also called them (but had to leave a message) so I could ask if they are using an older PostScript-based RIP instead of a modern APPE (PDF-based) engine, like you suggested. Hopefully I’ll get a call back soon.

    I’m going to check out that article too, David.

    In the meantime, can we learn anything from the Presspress Guide?

    Thanks!

  • August 15, 2016 at 1:13 pm #87500
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    So I may have called the print shop pretending to be a potential client looking to print my 56-page quarterly curated art/writing magazine, haha! I spoke with a sales rep so he didn’t know a lot about the technical side, but he took notes and is going to get back to me. I asked about their equipment and technology. Hopefully I’ll learn something that will help me.

  • August 15, 2016 at 1:14 pm #87501
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    Oh, also: he was adamant that they have state-of-the-art, new technology. Whatever that is worth.

  • August 17, 2016 at 10:20 am #87549
    Luiz Silveira

    Member

    Hi, Natalie.

    I need to say I was like your team. :) A lot of time away from printing and full of rules from the past. All that she said made sense in the 90 as David said. Those articles David suggested helped me a lot when the printers here complained about my “old formats”. :)

    But one thing is important: a lot of people doesn’t really understand about formats, sizes and so on and are doing a lousy job and getting a very bad quality material when printing. So do not just discard those old rules. If you understand why they want them to be used and know what is possible to be used today to have the same result, you will be safe. :) My opinion. :)

    Luiz

  • August 19, 2016 at 2:09 am #87608
    Jane Meagan

    Member

    You might want to consider digitekprinting.com on all your printing needs, aside from giving you the best value for your money, they also gives you materials in great condition quality stocks and on the prints design that you want if your want a custom made one. I actually got some flyer and brochures from them. [Advertising link removed]

  • August 20, 2016 at 12:27 am #87659
    Eugene Tyson

    Member

    I was all ready to jump in – but David has summed up beautifully!

  • August 22, 2016 at 10:48 am #87708
    DCurry

    Participant

    OK, I downloaded their prepress specs PDF and looked it over (sorry it took so long – I’ve been on vacation for a week). For the most part, everything looks reasonable, but I did notce 2 things (actually I noticed 3 things, but the third one is just a typo – they misspelled the word “Positioning” on the headers of pages 8 & 9. No big deal, but shows a lack of attention to detail. If they don’t check their own work, why would they care about yours?)

    1. Page 6 mentions supplying flattened PDFs. This is a red flag – there should be almost no reason to recommend this setting these days. Using PDF 1.3 (flattened) often causes more problems than it solves.

    2. Page 12 shows a screenshot of a warning, and it mentions ApogeeX as the RIP. I’ve worked with Apogee (not ApogeeX) in the past for 2 years, and it is a very capable and modern RIP. However, I think the “X” on the end (ApogeeX) indicates an older version, so that might be the source of the problem. But, when I look at their website they refer to Apogee Prepress, which is the name of the newer versions. There is a possibility that you are dealing with a prepress person (or even the entire department) who has modern tools but is stuck in some old ways of working. If that’s the case, good luck!

  • August 22, 2016 at 10:54 am #87709
    Luiz Silveira

    Member

    DCurry,

    One thing that happens a lot are people “having no time” to update their specs. They buy a new machine or change something, but don’t tell the costumers in a formal way. :) Maybe there are not stuck in old parameters anymore, but they don’t care enough to tell. :)

  • August 23, 2016 at 7:16 am #87721
    DCurry

    Participant

    Good point, Luiz; however, the OP stated that she’s had actual contact with the department, which would supercede whatever they put in their specs. I’m just using their specs to try to cobble together a scenario where it would be plausible to give someone that file advice.

    • August 23, 2016 at 12:27 pm #87746
      Luiz Silveira

      Member

      :)

  • August 23, 2016 at 8:11 am #87726
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    Wow, thank you for reviewing their specs, DCurry!

    Interesting. It does sound like the magazine’s production team is all about flattening layers. They have been very clear about that. So I can see them submitting flattened PDFs to the printer.

    I could see that possibility — dealing with people who are running newer software with old-set ways. Not sure if it stems from the print shop or the magazine’s production department, but there seems to be this weird fear that Indesign is this fragile being who must be handled with caution or she will break into a million pieces. Either that or that she is this finicky woman whom they’ve learned how to please with THESE EXACT STEPS and any other method WILL ABSOLUTELY FAIL unless you know EXACTLY HOW TO MAKE HER HAPPY. It just seems silly. Sigh.

    Thank you for this information. It really helps. I’ve mentioned to my editor I’d like to have a conversation on this subject sometime in the future. I know it won’t be any time soon. Things move very slowly. But hopefully we can make some progress.

    • August 23, 2016 at 12:21 pm #87744
      DCurry

      Participant

      Just as an FYI, and because I’m a stickler for accurate terminology, the flattening I’m referring to is Transparency Flattening, not flattening layers. In Photoshop, the 2 are linked – if you flatten layers, you flatten transparency. But in InDesign, flattening transparency refers to rasterizing effects like drop shadows, blend modes and opacities less than 100%. Adding a layer in ID does not add transparency.

  • August 23, 2016 at 8:33 am #87729
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    A year from now, or however long it takes, come back and tell us how it’s going, Natalie! This is a great story and I think you’re on the right path.

  • August 23, 2016 at 8:37 am #87730
    Natalie Fowler

    Member

    David,

    Thanks! I will definitely keep you guys updated. Hoping we can make some progress eventually. Like I stated previously, I want my team members to succeed too. It’s not all about making life easier for me (though that nice too, of course). We will see!

    • August 23, 2016 at 12:26 pm #87745
      David Blatner

      Keymaster

      No, it’s not about saving you time, personally. It’s about making the company work more efficiently and creating a better end result. When you reduce steps, use native file formats, work with RGB images, and “new” ideas like that, you end up saving time, money, AND getting higher quality.

      The only people who should stand in the way of that are people with excellent job security who are paid by the hour. ;-)

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