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• • March 5, 2015 at 4:06 pm #73738
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Hello gurus :-)

    This problem seems to be a tough one
    I am publishing a book (500 pages) with Lulu.com
    Have a look at this scan:
    https://x2t.com/sksb_smudge
    Notice the following:
    1. All texts were set with the same font (Linux Libertine), the only difference is the characters size.
    2. The first paragraph and the footnote are OK (marked with green arrows).
    3. The second paragraph is completely smudged (marked with red arrow).
    4. On ALL the other pages, ALL paragraphs set with this particular style (Body Type) are smudged.

    Lulu has no idea what is causing this problem. The PDF file uploaded to them was generated using Lulu’s .joboptions settings.

    Can anyone help with suggestions about what could create such a strange printing problem?

    Many thanks in advance
    Tom

  • March 5, 2015 at 4:44 pm #73739
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    I’m guessing it is the font. With a name like Linux Libertine, it does not instill a lot of confidence.

  • March 5, 2015 at 6:03 pm #73740
    Dwayne Harris

    Member

    I’m with David about the font being the issue. I see they have a free one and a commercial one. I wonder if that makes a difference (I’m guessing you have the free one)?

    And it’s happening on certain characters (the “a” and the “l,” which means something is going on at that point size).

    I’ve seen good stuff written about the font and some bad stuff.

    I’m inclined to believe it’s a wacky font.

  • March 5, 2015 at 6:44 pm #73742
    Bonnie Britt

    Member

    I’m with David and Dwayne on this. I’d look at the font. Here’s one discussion.
    https://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/78516/linux-libertine-package-and-fonts-not-working-anymore-fall-2012

    Are you using InDesign or LaTex?

  • March 6, 2015 at 6:11 am #73746
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Thanks to all of you, David, Dwayne and Bonnie.
    First an answer to Bonnie, we are composing using InDesign CS6 and Windows 7.

    However, there are details that I did not mention previously which may point to other problem(s) then the font:

    1. Linux Libertine (yes we are using the free version) is used in most texts/paragraph styles. Altogether, in this particular file (a book), there are 115 different paragraph styles. From these, 62 use the Linux Libertine font, but ONLY TWO styles render with smudging! ALL the other 60 print OK.

    2. What follows is maybe the main point which could indicate that the problem is not with the font itself, rather maybe related to the printing process or machine. It just happens that initially we were printing the books in a cheaper version of Lulu’s print qualities, called Standard Paperback. The mentioned problem DID NOT show in the books printed with Standard quality! It only appeared when we switched to the so-called Premium Paperback quality.

    Note: the reason for this print quality switch was that this particular job/book contains over 1,000 grayscale images (photos, illustrations, maps, diagrams) and in the Standard quality they did not print well – were blurred, sometimes a bit out of focus. This was eliminated in the Premium print, but this is when the smudging problem showed up.

    So what do you think?

    
    @Dwayne: assuming it could be the font, who is the vendor of the commercial version of Linux Libertine?

    Regards and thanks again
    Tom

  • March 6, 2015 at 6:58 am #73747
    David Blatner

    Keymaster

    What you call “smudging” I see as a very repeatable software bug. The bug is probably either in the font or the printing RIP. It would not surprise me if the LuLu Premium Paperback quality books were imaged with a different software RIP, perhaps even in a different printing location. I haven’t seen a font printing bug like that since the early 90s. But it’s not random “smudging.”

  • March 6, 2015 at 8:33 am #73750
    Dwayne Harris

    Member

    @Tom: I may have been mistaken about the commercial version. I had come across a website with a “commercial” tab for the fonts, but apparently it was for other fonts. I checked more around, and the free version is allowed for personal or commercial reasons.

    I”m with David that it’s not a random smudge (it affects the “a” and “l”.

    It is weird, though, that it only affects two style sheets. Are the H&Js the same for those two styles as elsewhere? Any custom kerning or tracking in those affected paragraphs/styles?

  • March 6, 2015 at 8:54 am #73751
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Thanks guys :-)
    The sole difference between the two offending paragraph styles and all the rest are mostly character sizes, keep options, and leading. All have hyphenation on.

    As mentioned, there was no problem when the printing was with Standard quality.

    I am now rushing to a client, but later I will post a scan that depicts other paragraphs where you will notice random smudging of other characters besides ‘a’ and ‘l.’

    Will be back, bear with me
    Tom

  • March 6, 2015 at 8:57 am #73752
    Dwayne Harris

    Member

    Thanks for the update Tom.

    If it is because of the printing quality, then I’m not sure there is much you can do–it’s a problem with the RIP.

    I take it that your PDFs look fine?

    Also–I’m wondering if there is something not checked (or checked) in their job option settings.

  • March 6, 2015 at 1:03 pm #73755
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Hello folks,
    I’m back ;-)

    Please have a look at this scan:
    https://x2t.com/sksb_smudge191

    I marked with red several words which, besides the letters ‘a’ and ‘l’, have printing distortions (smudging?).
    Also, if magnified (see left side box) other distortions are evident in most characters.
    Notice that right side text is the 2nd paragraph style mentioned previously (contains distorted chars, worst then Body Type). The left-hand side paragraph is Body Text.

    
    @Dwayne: yes, my PDFs look perfect, this was confirmed even Lulu’s tech service.

    Please see below the job options settings (file called Full Bleed Lulu) sent by Lulu for exporting my PDFs.

    General:
    – Standard: None
    – Compatibility: Acrobat 4 (PDF 1.3)
    – Pages: all
    – Embed Page Thumbnails: Off
    – Optimize for fast Web view: On
    – Create Tagged PDF: Off
    – View PDF after Exporting: On
    – Export Layers: Visible & Printable Layers
    – Include Bookmarks: Off
    – Include Hyperlinks: Off
    – Include Non-Printing Objects: Off
    – Include Visible Guides and Grids: Off
    – Include Interactive Elements: Do not Include

    Compression:
    – Color Images > Bicubic Downsampling to 300 pixels per inch for images
    above 300 (Automatic JPEG)
    – Grayscale Images > Bicubic Downsampling to 300 pixels per inch for images
    above 300 (Automatic JPEG)
    – Monochrome Images > Bicubic Downsampling to 1200 pixels per inch for images
    above 1200
    – Compression: ZIP
    – Crop Image Data to Frames: On
    – Compress Text and Line Art: On

    Marks and Bleeds:
    – All Marks: Off
    – Type: Default
    – Weight: 0.25 pt
    – Offset: 2.117 mm (0.0833″)
    – Bleed and Slug: Use Document Bleed Settings
    – Include Slug Area: Off

    Output:
    – Color Conversion: No Color Conversion
    – Destination: N/A
    – Profile Inclusion Policy: Don’t Include Profiles

    Advanced:
    – Subset fonts when percent of characters used is less than 1%
    – Transparency Flattener Preset: [High Resolution]
    – Ignore Spread Overrides: Off
    – Job Definition Format: Off

    Security: defaults (all settings off)

    • March 6, 2015 at 3:58 pm #73769
      Dwayne Harris

      Member

      Wow, Tom–there is a lot of smudge, and I see what you mean about additional characters. But–it definitely seems to affect 99 percent of “a” and “l”‘s. The output settings look okay, so I don’t know. I noticed the ones as well.

      Are you using the true type version or the open type?

      I’m guessing it’s a problem at Lulu’s end and their printing. I personally believe that if the PDF looks okay, then the problem is the printer.

      I hope you get it figured out, because I know what a pain in the butt it would be if you had to change fonts at this point.

      And in the future you will know not to use that font again :(

  • March 6, 2015 at 5:08 pm #73770
    Colleen Shannon

    Member

    From a commercial printing point of view, it does look like a cheap font problem, but I have one suggestion on your PDF export:

    General->Standard->PDF/X-1a:2001

    We find that x-1a solves a lot problems. Good luck.

  • March 7, 2015 at 4:38 am #73772
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    People you are wonderful :-) thanks a bunch

    
    @Dwayne: All font files from this family carry the TrueType extension (.ttf); however, clicking on each file, the description says:
    Version: Version 5.1.4. ttfautohint (v0.9) (note: version numbers vary depending on the font’s weight/width/style.
    OpenType Layout, TrueType Outlines.

    And you are right Dwayne, I tremble on my feet about the idea of having to switch the font family. Diagramming these two volumes took us 4 months!

    @Coleen: thanks for this tip, will try.

    Closing information: I have been struggling with Lulu for two months now. They produced two proofs on two different dates and sent me the copies (did I mention that the book is printed in two volumes?). All four copies show exactly the same problem. They are clueless and I am unable to speak/call their tech staff because they only correspond by email.

    From the beginning I suspected their RIP and/or printing device and also what David wrote, namely that they could be outsourcing and printing in several different locations, thus different machines/RIPs.

    As you know I live in Brazil, so they may as well have the books printed in China and shipped to me. Nevertheless, if the buyer lives in the States then possibly to cheapen the freight costs they will print it in the US. So now I did the following: I ordered a copy and shipped it to my cousin living in PA. Let’s see if he will get a copy with the same glitches or smudges. Will let you guys know.

    If you have any further comments to the above please let me know. Thanks.

    So long for now. I will keep this thread open :(
    Tom

    Forgot this one, which may be of your interest if you deal with international auto-publishing users: Initially we tried to publish these books with CreateSpace-Amazon. Since we use the metric system of units, both volumes were in points/centimeters/millimeters. Believe it or not, CreateSpace was unable to handle it, willing to force us to remake the book in Imperial/US units. IMHO, self-publishing is the future of the publishing business but when one faces problems like the above it becomes a nightmare. Both companies (Lulu and CreateSpace) will only communicate through emails or their sites and hide their phone numbers!! Could well be that their tech support groups sit somewhere in Timbuktu.

    • March 7, 2015 at 8:05 am #73774
      Dwayne Harris

      Member

      Thanks for the update, Tom.

      It will indeed be interesting to see how it prints elsewhere!

      And I have to admit, I think it’s terrible that Lulu and CreativeSpace-Amazon only do contact via email.

  • March 7, 2015 at 10:01 am #73798
    Gustavo Martinez

    Member

    I have done several books with CreateSpace here in US. I don’t have a problem reaching someone on the phone. There’s a “Call me” feature in their “Contact us” section. It will be interesting to see if printing the book in US (as far as I know they have facilities in North Carolina) will make a difference in Tom’s case.

  • March 7, 2015 at 10:05 am #73799
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Thanks guys

    @guz: It is likely that both companies deal differently with communication issues in the US and elsewhere. All is related to $$$$$$ :-)

    It’s pouring knives here and you folks may be freezing ;-)
    Tom

  • March 7, 2015 at 10:33 am #73800
    Gustavo Martinez

    Member

    Right. I meant to say CreateSpace has facilities in South Carolina. Also I know they list offices in Brazil. I wonder if they communicate with you through that office. No worries with freezing in Florida :>)

  • March 8, 2015 at 8:34 am #73807
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    @gus: We tried to publish this particular book with CreateSpace back in August 2014. As mentioned, after two months trying to accommodate our format with theirs and being unable to “speak” in European units, we gave up. Since then we are using Lulu.
    And the Brazilian office (if it exists) never contacted us, neither their tech support mentioned that such route of communication existed.

    @to all: I discovered a page which deals with Linux Libertine problems to print. I was able to download a so-called G version which seemingly resolves those smudging problems. So, after my cousin reports on how his book arrived, and assuming that his copy presents problems too, we will try to replace the current fonts by the G version.

    Note: We selected this particular font because it has a _very elegant_ serif design and reads well even in very small points and in light weight. It wasn’t because it is offered for free :-) This family was designed by a Hungarian group of SourceForge.

    Regards
    Tom

  • March 8, 2015 at 9:08 am #73808
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    Sorry folks, forgot to mention the link to the page that discusses the printing problems with Linux Libertine:
    Linux Libertine & Libreoffice 3.5 distorted printing
    https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/1018069

    This is where I found the link to use the G version (full family download for free):
    https://www.numbertext.org/linux/index.html

    Regards

  • March 8, 2015 at 9:50 am #73810
    Dwayne Harris

    Member

    Thanks for the update. It looks like you have it figured out.

  • March 16, 2015 at 4:11 pm #73986
    Tom Venetia

    Member

    @to all:
    An update about this problem.
    My cousin got a copy of my book. His copy has “some smudges” but contrary to the copies I got, he says the problem show on some few pages only.
    Now what folks? Any ideas?
    TIA
    Tom

  • April 15, 2017 at 10:33 pm #93724
    Caleb Maclennan

    Member

    Hey Tom I don’t know if this problem is still relevant for you, but the thread is getting referenced elsewhere online so I thought I’d put a note here for future readers.

    I run a publishing company and have used this font family for several large book projects now. Additionally it is a go-to font for me on smaller works, especially with mixed-language content.

    Contrary to several of the comments above, the Libertine family isn’t a “cheap” font and it shouldn’t be discarded just because it’s free. It actually has a lot going for it that even many expensive commercial fonts don’t measure up to. That being said the Linux Libertine series also did have a number of bugs and at some point the original developer basically abandoned the project. After that for a number of years there were versions floating around that fixed one bug or another, but no comprehensive set of fixes — until more recently.

    Since 2012 actually there has been a fork called Libertinus Serif (along with a fork of Biolinum called Libertinus Sans) that you can find at https://github.com/khaledhosny/libertinus. This project has turned into a fairly exhaustive set of fixes for the original font that has dealt with most of the issues reported on but never fixed on the original project’s tracker as well as expanded the character coverage and fixed any number of more recently reported issue. The math fonts have also been developed considerably.

    I’ve found this series to be a great drop in replacement for anything that used Linux Libertine with a lot of the little odds and ends fixed. In my publishing work it’s proved relatively problem free. I highly recommend anybody using the original font series to switch over.

    Lastly as the font is still actively developed, if there are problems with it they usually get addressed in short order after being reported. For example this issue was mentioned here is an issue https://github.com/khaledhosny/libertinus/issues/62, although it is not clear whether this issue is even relevant to that font. If you happen to try it please report how your previous problem is affected.

    Caleb
    Via Christus Publications

    • April 16, 2017 at 1:09 pm #93727
      Dwayne Harris

      Member

      Caleb

      I think it’s great that the font is being improved and there is a reporting system to get the bugs worked out.

      But personally–I would never use the font. I don’t have time to work with buggy fonts. And that’s just me. I’m glad they are fixing it and I know it takes time.

      But for a person such as myself (and the company I work for), we have crazy deadlines. Sometimes two or three weeks from 1st pass pages to the finished product for printing.

      Heck–I sometimes get one or two days to take the Word file and make good pages in InDesign for first pass.

      I’m sure other folks may not have those sort of deadlines and have the time to deal with problem fonts.

      As I said–I’m glad it’s being actively developed, and maybe at a date when it’s all fixed, I may give it a try.

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