Michael wrote:
How could I send an InDesign file to the client, without giving them all my work? Any chance I can erase all styles, master page layouts, and other “secrets”?
I assume your client has asked that you give them your files. This (giving clients original files) is a very strange practice, I think, but one that I have been hearing about increasingly over the past decade. Ultimately, the question needs to be addressed in a written contract between the designer (or agency) and the client. I personally think the idea of a designer giving their files to a client is crazy, but sometimes there is little choice. If the designer agrees to give the client the original files, then you should not strip out all the work that went into creating them. The written agreement should state whether the client can take your files to a different designer or agency.
That said, if the agreement was murky or you’re sending the file to a client for some other reason, and you decide you want to “cripple” the file so they cannot do much with it, I supposed you could do it by stripping out the styles and master pages. But it would be a bit tedious:
For each spread of the document:
- Choose Override All Master Page Items (or press Command-Option-Shift-L/Ctrl-Alt-Shift-L)
- Select All (cmd/ctrl-A)
- Choose Break Link to Style from Paragraph Styles panel menu
- Choose Break Link to Style from Character Styles panel menu
- If you’ve used object styles, break those links, too.
Then, when you’re done with all the document spreads, deselect everything and delete all the character styles and paragraph styles. When InDesign asks what you want to replace the paragraph styles with, choose “[No paragraph style]” and turn on the Preserve Formatting checkbox.
Finally, delete all extra master pages and delete all the items on Master Page A.
Don’t forget to use Save As now, not Save! Keep your original files in a nice safe place. And next time, tell your client that you’re providing a final PDF, and not the originals.
This article was last modified on December 19, 2021
This article was first published on December 5, 2008
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What about a situation like this: I am working through a third party on a contract, hourly basis. No stipulations were made about the original files in my contract, but I received the “old” originals (I am both creating new content and updating older versions) in INDD format. Obviously, the first designer supplied those (and has since supplied a few of the linked files that were missing). So, 1) who “owns” the improvements and additions to the original files; and, 2) who owns the INDD files I have created? The final deliverables are medium res pdfs for online use and also print-ready production pdfs, but I had assumed that I might be asked for the original INDDs at some point. I have enjoyed a good long run (3 years) and don’t anticipate a split, so I’m really just curious.
This conversation remains highly relevant in 2019.
I agree sharing the expectation of what is delivered is an important part of both the conversation with client and your written agreement before performing the work. If the client expects to receive fully-functioning templates and documents that value is constructed somehow into the original price. A book publisher may be explicitly purchasing a template for use on a new series of books, or they may be anticipating reprints (either as-is or with corrections) and future editions.
I favor strongly toward delivering non-editable files when possible (PDFs, in the case of printed material.) Some design items, such as logos, must necessarily be delivered in a format that is editable, and this is where the written agreement can provide direction and limits for the customer.
Hi all,
It’s quite an old discussion but I’m also looking for such a script for the very same reason, regardless of the moral considerations.
Thought, I’d add one item berfore the other actions : the first step should be to delete Text Variables (and replace them with text).
Otherwise, the Text Variables based on a text or paragraph style will be broken.
Here’s another thought — one that reminds me of a programmer’s strategy. Change all the names of styles or other structural elements to gibberish. All the structure is still there, but it’s a lot more work to figure it out. It could be scripted, as well.
If your client asks for your digital files, it’s highly unlikely they’re intention is to come back to you in the future. In which case, when you say “sorry but no” if they take the hump and choose not to use you, it was no loss to you in the long run anyway.
Probably better to explain this at the outset so your client knows where you stand.
@Nye Hughes : I’ve had companies come to me with files that required fonts I don’t have (I don’t want to spend several hundreds of Euros on the Meta family) and I then offer them a choice: either they pay 75% of the purchase cost (100% if I can’t use the font for anyone else due its style), or I try to find a suitable alternative.
Some want to stick with the font they had, others want to save the money and will go for a new look.
So using an “exclusive” font is in no means a guarantee, especially as most people don’t look at fonts the way we do (“Oh the shape of that A is just awesome, and look how nicely spaced everything is!” vs. “Yep, that’ll do.”)
Hi
One reason I can think of for doing this, besides supplying the job back to the client, is sometimes I receive files for a redesign job or a start-over. And more often than not, the people who’ve originated the job don’t have the first clue about how to create the job properly in InDesign… So it’s nice for me to be able to strip-out any bad habits they may have applied to any text and objects etc and be safe in the knowledge that I’m working on a clean-build.
To use an analogy, it’s like if you were building a house, you’d ideally start on fresh ground so that you can ensure your foundations are exactly as you need them, then build-up from there – knowing that any poor workmanship has been removed!!!
That’s my thoughts anyway!
Pete
Another factor to consider is the font licences. Even if you give the client the InDesign files, they may not want to shell out for the use of the fonts.
Perhaps one reason for using fonts from exclusive (read expensive) foundries in your designs is to encourage clients to stick with you, rather than having to pay extra for another designer to purchase the fonts.
As a client I always have to prepare for the worse case scenario. As a client I certainly wouldn’t expect the master files at the same price as a PDF. I do however have to protect my investment in those files. If a designer creates an expensive template for me and I pay for it and then 6 months down the road I need to make a few changes but don’t need anywhere near a complete redesign the cost would be substantially less. However if I call for those changes and I get a “This number is no longer in service” message now I have to pay someone to start over again and I have lost a substantial amount of money in having to hire another designer to recreate what I already paid for once.
We once leased software for the deployment of our website through a small company. It was a huge amount of work setting everything up and before I agreed to the terms my first question was “What if you go out of business?’ They actually had a clause in the contract that said if the company folded the software would be given to the clients so they could continue to operate their websites. If I recall it was some sort of Escrow arrangement.
I think that David gives the best advice in saying spell this all out up front. Many clients may not have a clue how the process works and what is SOP. A good business person will make things clear up front. Many people may assume the files come with the job just as they assume when you buy a car it comes with the tires. Make it clear, up front, and don’t hide it.
Yes, that´s what I have done since. Those cases happened years ago and they were a kind of additional training for me to become a professional…. I was young and eager back then… now I´m just a cynical old fart….=)
Petteri,
In you case I would make sure up front that the contract clearly states the deliverable for the design is the design (probably delivered as a low res PDF) and not an InDesign template file, and that the client is well aware of this. These are actually two different functions as the design file is probably not a full template with organized styles and master pages ready for production and takes additional time to set up. This way if they do just want the templates then you can charge them for your time and knowledge in creating those.
Also I would not give a cut rate or free on the design, a well thought out design takes a lot of time to do right, and so does creating a production template. If you were to do this then make sure that the contract states a minimum number of layouts (so that you can make up for your lost wages) that they have to have you create, explaining to them that you have bills to pay and cannot give away your work for free.
I have some unfortunate cases too…. Customer asked me to do magazine layout-design and promised to order at least few actual layouts from me for deasent price if I make those design-jobs cheaply or even free. Usually the bells should ring at this point.
After approved layout-design and first published magazine made by me, same customer starts to ask original indd-files from me. That is the point where I usually understand that I have lost the game. The big questions is, do I want to make a job little bit easier for the next guy. This whole situation is probably not his/her fault anyway…. I didn´t send original files.
I didnt see any reasonable way to get those promised jobs to me. I took it as a price for learning something. After those cases I have not made any cheap designs.
I have worked in Text Book publishing for over a decade and this has pretty much the standard practice for that entire time, especially for the big producers like Glencoe/McGraw-Hill, Pearson, and Houghton-Mifflin.
In fact there is one project that I designed for a division of NGS where the book was the first in a series of books, one produced a year, which would be built off the same template. When it came time for the bidding on the second book we were underbid, they are now on their third book. It would have been nice to have that work, I have recently been laid off and probably wouldn’t have been if I was working on that book. However this isn’t because they have the original files, its due to a quote that was probably inflated to better reflect the labor involved in working with this particular client, and the people who came up with the quote probably thought it was more of a formality than a serious competitive bid.
I’m sure that there are some people who will take your files and send them somewhere else for cheeper editing. This is only going to get worse as Indian production companies get better at catering to US companies and expand into more markets. But “crippling” the documents you provide to the client won’t help change this and could hurt your reputation a lot more than your chances of future business with the same company.
I have a few differing views on this.
First, back in the days before computer layouts, it was SOP for us to ship all the mechanicals, chromes, and other materials we used to create a client’s final ads. Usually this happened when we lost the account.
There were no ways to “flatten” those mechanicals so we just boarded everything up.
However, we would never have been asked (nor would we have agreed) to pack up all the colored markers, t-squares, two-coat cements, and razor blades that we used to make the mechanicals.
We were not required to send back all the type proofs with markups. Things like that were considered part of our work and not something the client owned.
The client owned the final ad proofs — everything necessary to run the ad again. But not everything necessary to generate a new version of the ad.
Today, however, there is a big difference between the board mechanical and an InDesign file.
If I send the client an InDesign file with a complex set of styles, complete with GREP styles, nested styles, paragraph based on styles, master page arrangements, multi-ins, layer arrangements, numbered list configurations, and other clever production tricks, I am sending much more than the ability to recreate the job.
I have given back thousands of dollars worth of my production process of streamlining and experience in creating documents. (And — GASP — I haven’t even included XML structures!)
Unless that was VERY explicitly spelled out in the original contract, I would never send that type of material to a client. Especially not a client who is taking the account elsewhere.
I find nothing wrong with the concept of “flattening” the ID file. But I would handle it a simpler way than David.
I would make a PDF of the documents. Then, I would use Recosoft’s PDF2ID product to convert that PDF back into an ID file. (I would make sure that PDF2ID did not create styles during the conversion.)
And what if the client asked me what happened to the styles and masters? Well, once again, since I’ve already lost the job, there is no reason for me to explain where those features went.
But I consider all of those production techniques to be part of my production expertise. And I am under no obligation to provide that to the next agency.
Well… everything so far has been amazing and super advise.
I’d just want to add, it’s really up to the realtionship with the client, isn’t it?
I have to agree that giving a client control of the work you’ve done is just bad business, if you ignore professionaism-ish. There are 2 sides to the coin.
To be honest, going back to my original point, I would only give out files to clients who are in my view “trustworthy”. And some clients I wouldn’t and couldn’t give out files.
On the opposite side, I have the gut feeling that I wouldn’t want anyone getting a “dirty” file from me.
So instead of wiping the styles and work I’ve done and passing them onto the client, I’d rather just give the client nothing.
But again it bends on the relationship you have with the client.
I too believe the client pays for your time, effort and the final product, not the tools you used (the working files).
I’ve had a few occasions where small businesses came to me to get flyers and menus designed and printed. Then after the design was finalized they requested a PDF for their website.
We never saw them come back for the prints, heard nothing from them, but did find they had new (low quality) menus and flyers a few weeks later.
This kind of sneaky, dishonest dealing turned me off from giving out hi-res PDFs to just everyone. I still give low-res PDFs, but now password protect them, include my info and a warning (not intended for print) in the metadata. Or I simply send low-res JPGs which, in case of multi-page documents, I sometimes turn into PDFs again.
On the other hand, if a customer comes to me to get something designed and then honestly says “listen, I found someone who’ll do the printing cheaper” and I can’t match or undercut that price/quality, they’ll get a hi-res PDF for print from me with no questions asked.
I’ve yet been asked for my original Illustrator, Photoshop or InDesign files, and I won’t unless there’s a very good reason, even if that reason is them going to another designer (assuming we’re on good terms).
I’d have to agree that a client pays for the “house” or garden wall and not the tools for the reason that the “next” designer should earn their money. The client will end up price-shopping and find out the option of coming back to you will be cheaper.
Stripping styles seems tedious and perhaps vindictive in the time it’d take and the mood the task would create.
That said, embedding the pdf/finished piece after being saved WITHOUT MAINTAINING EDITING capabilities is faster and would provide the archival copy the client is looking for. If the client revisits the issue you find out quickly that they’re designer-shopping and the “next” guy had figured out what was done.
At that point you refer the client to your contract and your copyright clause. You can then sell the copyright for an additional fee.
A “residual” solution would be to offer a maintenance plan, securing followup business on a retainer basis.
I am of the mindset that the client definitely pays for the finished product, not the working files. If they want to take it to another designer (once I have been paid), then let that new designer sit and figure out what I have done and earn his/her pay, not stand on my shoulders. When you buy a house you buy the house, not the blueprints. They belong to the builder.
I’m an Originator for an in house Printing Press sometimes due to the work load we will send jobs out to be: a) reprinted, b) designed, when we get it designed we get back the electronic files both as Indesign and Postscript (PDF), If we ask for them to print it we request a price for the electronic versions, I would have no problem sending files to another design house if we agreed on a price both for the printed material or finished design (website/PDF/postscript files) and the pagelayout version (indesign).
Micheal if you wanted to be real mean you could embed your PDF version of the file into an Indesign layout, they still get their .Indd file. And remember they may have not paid for the font.. Some secrets are worth holding on to if it means the job returns to your desk if and when changes are needed.. But in saying that you can share your secrets with us.. I promise not to under cut you on any job.
@David
Understood about a client having it for archival or giving it to another designer. That is the other side of the coin. I understand the frustration of not retaining control of the artwork and the possibility of losing a client.
@nobody in particular
One way or the other they are going to work on or store the files/pass them onto another designer whether you wipe the styles and masters or not. Why not just save everyone a lot of hassle (including yourself) and send the whole thing over as you have it on your system?
Just consider that it might damage your reputation as a designer/or your company if the badly constructed file is traced back to you.
I agreed fully with Eugene. Most clients turn to designers because they’re in no position to make high-quality documents themselves. Giving them digital copies complete with master pages and styles gives them the assurance that all their work isn’t lost if your office burns down. That’s why I make sure my clients get a DVD with both the final ID document and screen and press copies of PDF versions. They bought it, it’s theirs.
At most, giving them the originals might allow them to do minor tweaks in-house without turning to you. But who’s going to buy software costing almost $1000 and train their staff at still more expense for that? You’ll be much cheaper, particularly since you understand your layout.
The only real danger is that they might turn to a talented designer for the original and go cut rate for subsequent copies. That could be covered by a contract that distinguishes between an overall design (with master pages and styles) and one particular document. They pay more to own the former. And I suspect most clients will understand and accept that distinction.
Yotam (and David!): Command/Ctrl+S is reversible with InDesign.
David I know you know that. ;-) You must be having a brain cramp.
What’s not reversible is a Save As, a Revert (which goes back to the last Save) or the state of an untitled document before the first save.
But if you open an existing doc, do stuff, save, do more stuff, save, you can Undo all the way back to the state of the document when you first opened it … before the saves, iow. It’s a Super Revert.
That said, doing a Save As before doing major revisions is probably a good idea.
@Yotam: Very good point!
@Eugene and Tim: I agree that getting a stripped file back (if I were the client) would end up with me never using that designer again. However, I think in most of these cases, the client may never even open the file in InDesign — they may not even have InDesign. They just want the whole thing for archival purposes… or they want to give it to another designer.
I personally would never strip a document before sending it to a client. Just rubs me the wrong way. But just because I wouldn’t do it, doesn’t mean it’s not worth knowing how to do it if you wanted to. In every lesson there is something that you may need later… in this case, the lesson is: Break Link to Style. It can be a lifesaver in a number of situations.
“Don?t forget to use Save As now”
I would suggest to START this process with a Save As. I for example have an automatic reflex every couple of minutes to Cmd/Ctrl+S, which as we all know, is irreversible.
This is a tough philosophical question, and there is no easy answer. I tend to agree with Eugene, and I also would be upset if I got files that were stripped and somewhat useless.
I owned a printing facility for 20 years, and it was a question that I discussed with designers and clients over the years many times. In the era of using and storing printing plates and films (pretty much not the case anymore), clients would ask for their plates and film. Normally, I would give them to them as a gesture of good will. If I balked, they would say, “Well, didn’t I pay for them.” Of course, I would come back with “N0, you paid for a printed piece, which we gave you.”
Technically, the client does pay for all that work the designer did to produce those files, and so the contract does need to clearly state what they are actually paying for. They could be just paying for a printed piece or ad and not for the files to make them. It’s somewhat like Eugene’s garden wall: the client pays for the wall not the tools to make the wall, even though the contractor may have had to buy a new tool to finish the project.
We’ll no doubt continue to argue it for years with no easy resolution. Evolution of technology solved the printing plate and film problem; I wonder what will happen with files?
However, David, as always, thanks for the useful information.
I’d be really peeved if I asked a designer for the files back and they came back with no master pages, no running heads, no paragraph styles, no character styles, etc.
Firstly, opening the file I would immediately wonder how on this green Earth does this designer even tie his shoes in the morning? No styles, no master pages, no nothing. It’s just a mess!
Secondly, I’d start thinking, no way am I ever using this designer again, they clearly don’t have any idea how to set up a layout.
I’d curse them to the high-heavens and preach to everyone not to use them, it wouldn’t matter to me if the design was good, bad or award winning.
The fact the file appears to be just slapped together any old way would turn me off using a designer that seemed to work that way.
I understand the arguments for NOT sending the files to clients. And I understand that legalities need to be put in place, etc.
The point I’m saying is that if I received files with no styles/master pages etc. then I would definitely not hesitate in using another designer.
I’ve worked on both sides of the fence as a designer and sending things out to design houses to be designed. And there are legitimate reasons as to why I would like to take the file and work on it. After all I’ve paid someone to this work for me.
It would be like paying a builder to build a garden wall, you think it looks great from a distance but you go to sit on it and it hasn’t got foundations or even cement between the bricks. All you get from using the wall is pain and the hassle to rebuild it properly which you’ve already paid to be done.
I’d call shenanigans on a file if I received it without any of the styles/master pages, etc.
If this procedure is going to be repeated, well, that’s a candidate for a script !